Failure to provide broadband for new build property

[#1]

Quote from: TonyJames

Dear Matt, Attached is the most recent itemised bill shown on my home phone account.

Hi Tony. I've attached your home phone display as we see it in our systems. As you can see LRS is marked as active, and the price for line rental is £0.00 - and I can assure you we see the same as you when we drill down into the component (i.e. line rental shows the same as it does in the pdf).

Quote from: TonyJames

You then refunded me the money for this phone package for November, December and January but now you are intending to charge me for the phone calls that I made on the line from 15 January until you finally connected the the broadband and my new phone, broadband and linerental packages started at the start of February. I did not instruct you to cancel any the phone package -you refunded the the money for the whole of January for the phone package but I did not expect you to then cancel the package I though had been running through the month and try to get me to pay for the phone calls at full cost.

Apologies, just trying to get it clear here. According to our records the line has been active with us since the 15th January as I stated, therefore whether or not we've refunded the cost of the package the line was active and the calls were made.
I can see that Adam made the refund as a gesture of goodwill given the time taken and the lack of simultaneous provide, as per ticket 64641000. You were also told on this ticket that your line rental saver would take effect from the 1st February, which is why your line rental was charged on your latest bill and also why it won't be charged on your next, as per the image I've attached.
I also believe the call package was cancelled due to your response in this ticket advising that we were charging you for a call package - that may have been a misunderstanding on our part, so please let us know if you'd like to move back onto anytime.
I've checked the previous invoice for call charges and can't see any on there, unfortunately we can't issue refunds on the upcoming invoice until it's generated which will be on your billing date however I will refund the cost of the calls (should they appear on there).

Quote from: TonyJames

If you want me make a payment for the call charges in Janaury on a phone line that at the time you could not even locate then I feel the amount if any that you can charge me for these calls is in dispute and I do not wish you to make any charge against them until the actual amount owed is resolved. PN created this messy situation not me.

As per my previous post, we knew the phone line was live as of the 15th and have records to prove such. I understand your not wanting to be charged for these given the confusion previously mentioned over the call package however regardless of the state of our supplier's database (which was the cause of the problem with providing the broadband) the line was live and the calls were made. As I said previously though given the confusion over the call package which I hope I explained above (your response to ticket 64641000 on the 24/01/13 at 19:49) I will refund these should they show on your bill.

Quote from: TonyJames

I repeat again I do not want PN to take any money from my account at the start of March other than the discount broadband charge. Matt can you give  me a commitment that this will happen. If I wait for the bill to be sent PN will then say it is too late for the direct debit to be cancelled so I want this sorted out before the bill is sent out to me.

I'm afraid as I said above until the bill is generated there is nothing we can do. I hope the image and the information related regarding the start of line rental saver (on the 1st Feb as per the ticket number above) explain why line rental was charged last month and why it won't be this time.

Quote from: TonyJames

Matt, two agents have already promised that I will  get an answer to my question about PN failure to be able to provide simultaneous provides to new build properties. Just how embarrassing are the figures??

Tony, I've explained once that I don't have the figures and even if I did we wouldn't be publishing them, especially not in a public forum. I'm afraid those facts haven't and won't change. Might I ask what it is you hope to use this information for?
I'm afraid regardless of the above I cannot think of a way that this information could be used that would be in any way positive for us.

Quote from: TonyJames

Pn's agent should not make commitments they are unwilling to keep. It is what this thread is about.

On that we agree completely, and I can see we have done this - however the majority of issues as I've explained were in fact down to our suppliers and their systems, over which we have no control. Nontheless you have received significant refunds which I believe, aside from the issue with the call charges which will be addressed once this months bill is generated, have covered the time over which the service was in question?

Quote from: TonyJames

I also note that you have given a refund against my payment of line rental for this year rather than a refund against the line rental for last year. This means that my line rental for this year shows as part paid on my account. Could you also give a written commitment that PN will not at some time in the future try to claim that money back through direct debit as the item is shown as part paid.

The invoice shows as part-paid because a refund has been issued against it, however your account is in balance. It is the overall balance that concerns us, and as this is correct we will not be chasing any refunds that have already been issued. I'm sure you can understand the importance of having a record of refunds issued? That is all this is.
I hope that clears things up for you.

[#2]

Matt,
Thank you for your full and detailed reply but only a half thank you for offering to refund items unnecessarily added to my next invoice.
I have  been informed in answer to my ticket that currently my invoice for next month only shows a charge for my broadband package, but  slightly frustratingly neither you or the agent who has answered my ticket has enough faith in PN systems to guarantee that charges for the line rental or phone calls in January will not be added to my invoice before it is issued.
Even if this particular case with the detailed attention of more than one experienced agents, PN is unable to give commitment that my next invoice will not include charges for specific items for which I should not need to be paying.
Please could everything possible be done to ensure that my next invoice is actually correct -It  does not really seem that much to ask.
Tony

[#3]

Hi Tony,
I thought I'd addressed this in the above post? To quote:

Quote from: Matt

You were also told on this ticket (64641000)  that your line rental saver would take effect from the 1st February, which is why your line rental was charged on your latest bill and also why it won't be charged on your next, as per the image I've attached.

Quote from: Matt

I hope the image and the information related regarding the start of line rental saver (on the 1st Feb as per the ticket number above) explain why line rental was charged last month and why it won't be this time.

I'm sorry if this explanation isn't  reassurance enough for you, I'm not sure what else I can do.

[#4]

Quote from: Matt

Hi Tony, I thought I'd addressed this in the above post? To quote: Quote from: Matt You were also told on this ticket (64641000)  that your line rental saver would take effect from the 1st February, which is why your line rental was charged on your latest bill and also why it won't be charged on your next, as per the image I've attached.

No, it shows me you still do not have a proper grasp of events.
I had paid a line rental saver for the year up to 1st February 2013 and from also paid for the line rental saver for the year from 1st February 2013.
PN refunded my line rental saver from 1st November until 15th January. You did not give me a refund until the end of the month but decided to that you would charge me for the line rental even though I had already paid for it with the line rental saver. I had paid for the line rental saver for the time at which the invoice was issued and for the next month, in fact for the next year.

Quote from: Matt

Apologies, just trying to get it clear here. According to our records the line has been active with us since the 15th January as I stated, therefore whether or not we've refunded the cost of the package the line was active and the calls were made. I can see that Adam made the refund as a gesture of goodwill given the time taken and the lack of simultaneous provide, as per ticket 64641000. You were also told on this ticket that your line rental saver would take effect from the 1st February, which is why your line rental was charged on your latest bill and also why it won't be charged on your next, as per the image I've attached. I also believe the call package was cancelled due to your response in this ticket advising that we were charging you for a call package - that may have been a misunderstanding on our part, so please let us know if you'd like to move back onto anytime. I've checked the previous invoice for call charges and can't see any on there, unfortunately we can't issue refunds on the upcoming invoice until it's generated which will be on your billing date however I will refund the cost of the calls (should they appear on there).

You are wrong in your belief that the cancellation of the phone package was due to my response to that ticket as the phone package was still in place when I replaced it with the new phone package that started on the 1st Feb. What happened is that after PN having the 'goodwill' after all the inconvenience they have causes to me refund the the charge they had made for my phone package for the whole month (a bonus for me totaling  £3, I think) but opting only to refund my line rental for half the month, they then decided when invoicing me a the end of the month to charge for phone calls even though a phone package was in place and charge me for line rental that I have already paid.
Also this quote makes it clear that you are not giving any commitment that PN will not invoice me for these calls now you have agreed they should not be paid and unless I have misread you reply you can only offer me 'reassurance' that part of your systems suggest I will not be charge for the line rental again although I have already paid the line rental saver. Last month I had already paid the line rental saver for the period from the 15th January, so that should have been active when the bill was generated.
I the answer to my last ticket the agent could give no 'guarantee' that the charges for line rental would not be added to my invoice again.
Matt are you able to have enough faith in your understanding of PN systems and the reliability of those system to on this single occasion give me me specific and clear commitment that my next invoice will not contain charges for line rental that is covered by my line rental saver or the phone calls for January that were cover by my anytime phone package? 
That is what more you could do for me Matt, actually ensuring that I am not going to be overcharged, yet again, on my next invoice and be willing to make a clear and specific commitment that I will not be overcharged on my next invoice.
regards
Tony
Ps- My 'significant' refund for services you failed to deliver are I believe a legal minimum. The additional refund, ' as a gesture of  good will given the time taken and the lack of simultaneous provide' of an extra two weeks of my phone pack (£3.00) would have been more appreciated if you had not then tried to charge me not only for the phone calls used during that time but also for the line lien rental that I had paid for already.
I am still very very concerned that I was deliberately misled when I enquired about the provision of broadband to a new build property. I believe that PN provided me with information that it knew  at the time was false and made commitment that it was aware there was a strong likelyhood it would be unable to fulfil. The answers I have received from you and the lack of the promised response from other agents has convinced me that it is within the realms of possibility that PN is systematically misinforming potential customers of its ability to provide simultaneous provision of phone and broadband to new build properties. I do not receive any reassurance that this is not the case I feel that I have a duty to report this matter to the relevant authorities. I do hope I do not have to do this but I do not want other to have to go through what happen to me. 

[#5]

Just received my advance notice of direct debit and ...
You have charged me for the phone calls that you said you were not going to charge me for as I had already paid for an anytime phone package for the period. I realise it is now to late to cancel this collection of excess payment even though you only informed me a few hours ago as that is how you choose to configure your system (which is within the letter but far from the spirit of the direct debit code of practice)
As I have been advised by PN complaints manager that although agents are reluctant it is possible to raise a refund from a historic invoice could this please happen in this case. I really want the refund process to start today, so I do not have to wait over three weeks for a refund. It can be done it just a question if you prefer the inconvenience for your mistakes to be taken on by yourselves or your customers.
Also if it is not too inconvenient next month could you only charge me for services that I have not already paid for; it just you keep on charging me for items I have previously paid for, even after I have given you advance warning that your systems seem to be showing such a mistake is going to happen you seem to do nothing about it.
Tony

[#6]

So still no refund.
or any apology for yet again charging me for items that have already been paid for.
On the broadband provision you seem to be telling me that you have absolutely no quality control data on your whether Pn is actually able to provide the broadband connection to new build properties in the time scale promise. My suggestion is that as you have no data to support your ability to provide such a service that you immediately cease to provide new potential customer with promised connection date that you do not know whether you will be able to fulfill.
If the information that you give to customer is reasonably accurate it would not do PN any harm to make the data on this accuracy public (yes, 9 times out of ten we will provide the connection by the date promised) the only reason that the data on how often PN fail to provide a connection by the date promised is if as seems could be the case PN is systematically lying to new customers.
I have give Pn ever opportunity to be open about this issue but it appear that Pn want to hide its true operating practices from its customers.
I am very very unhappy that I was told misleading information by PN agents and want Pn to ensure that this practice does not continue.
There are many good things about PN but it seems unwilling to deal with this issue effectively
Tony

[#7]

Still no notification of a refund
Still no apology, perhaps Pn feel that removing money that a customer does not owe them from a customer's bank account is perfectly acceptable.
I wrote in weeks ago to say I thought this would happen, yet no action was taken.
I had replies from agents informing me that from what they could see at their end no charges would be made. I forward copies of what I could see and explained I felt this would mean charges would be made for services that had already been paid for but PN's agents chose to do nothing.
Now I have to wait three weeks for them to again refund money they have over charged.
One PN agent suggested it would all be plain sailing from now on as my suggestion that Pn would over charge me again were mistaken, how wrong he was.
Could a Pn agent please give me a firm commitment that action will be taken to ensure that I am not overcharged again next month.

Tony

[#8]

Apologies but as far as I can see Matt's explanation on 22/2/13 should cover this along with the apology and explanation given on ticket
66135951
If you believe any incorrect charging has occurred with differs from what's been mentioned in our response there then we'd need to ask you to sending in proof (i.e copy of a bank statement showing the charge).
Adam

[#9]

I told PN in advance that I thought there was a danger it  would over charge me and it did not take any action to stop this happening.
Now you want me to provide bank statement before you will refund me!!!!!
Yes, are refund is due but when I asked for one I was told

Quote from: _Adam_Walker_

Apologies but as far as I can see Matt's explanation on 22/2/13 should cover this

Yes, Matt's explanation is quite clear

Quote from: TonyJames

You then refunded me the money for this phone package for November, December and January but now you are intending to charge me for the phone calls that I made on the line from 15 January until you finally connected the broadband and my new phone, broadband and linerental packages started at the start of February. I did not instruct you to cancel any the phone package -you refunded the money for the whole of January for the phone package but I did not expect you to then cancel the package I thought had been running through the month and try to get me to pay for the phone calls at full cost.

I've checked the previous invoice for call charges and can't see any on there, unfortunately we can't issue refunds on the upcoming invoice until it's generated which will be on your billing date however I will refund the cost of the calls (should they appear on there).

Then you did charge me for the call costs, even though I repeatedly asked you not to and strangely enough I would like you now like you to refund the cost of the calls as explain he would (should they appear)

Quote from: _Adam_Walker_

If you believe any incorrect charging has occurred with differs from what's been mentioned in our response there then we'd need to ask you to sending in proof (i.e copy of a bank statement showing the charge).

I am unsure what you mean by this; PN took the money out of my bank account on the 7th march.  Are you trying to tell me that PN has no record of invoicing me for these call charges and no record of removing money for them from my bank account (even though I explicitly directed that PN  should only use the direct debit for the broadband package charge that was due)? You seem to be suggesting in your opinion no refund is due, but that you charged me for the call charges should be clear from your record. The cost of the call charges should not have appeared on the invoice (as suggested by Matt above) but if they did I was promised a refund which appears now will only be provided if I a bank statement to show you took the fund against my instruction form my bank account on the 7th March.
Last month you overcharged me and then took three weeks to refund me and this month you overcharge me and want me to send you copies of my bank statements to prove that you have before you will refund the money that was taken from my bank account against explicit instruction not to take it.
I would like to understand why you are asking for a copy of my bank statement before you are willing to refund the excess charges on my direct debit.
Tony

[#10]

Still no refund!!!!
Still no statement that PN will be paying the refund they promised, but now seem to need a copy of my bank statement to provide.

In my last post I did not make clear the text promising a refund was from a Plusnet agent ( I seem to have not edited my quote correctly)

Quote from: Matt

I've checked the previous invoice for call charges and can't see any on there, unfortunately we can't issue refunds on the upcoming invoice until it's generated which will be on your billing date however I will refund the cost of the calls (should they appear on there).

The call charges did appear on the next invoice "(should they appear there)" , so I was expecting a refund as promised not a request for a copy of my bank statement. The payment left my bank on the 7th March and the invoice is marked as 'paid in full' on my PN account, so why does PN  need a copy of my bank statement to fulfill their promise of a refund - it feel just an excuse to delay paying me or perhaps they hope if they keep asking using delaying tactics I will not pursue the promised refund.
I have been continually told experienced agents have been assigned to my  case, that from now on it will be "plain sailing" but PN still seem absolutely unable to deliver on the basics. I wanted the Broadband connected on the date they promised but they were out by six weeks and now I want them to deliver the the refunds they have promised which will ensure that PN does not actually financially gain from the mess it created.
I would also very much appreciate it if next month PN could only withdraw money from my bank account that I owe it rather than as in the last two months over charging me and promising to refund it - I would say refunding but PN have not given the refund they promised.

Why would PN promise to give a refund and then start asking for copies of my bank statements -  invoice 39702287 dated the 1st March is marked as fully paid on their systems and left my bank account on the 7th March.
I have a direct promise from a PN agent that he will provide a refund, so why is it not being paid?
Is this common practice with PN?
I already suspect that PN is deliberately misinforming potential customers on it ability to provide Simultaneous provides to new build properties by the date promised.
Have other people had promises of refunds followed by delaying tactics in paying up - eg demands for copies of bank statement or other documents when there is clear no need for these?
Does PN mislead customers in other ways for it own financial advantage??
Tony

[#11]

Hi Tony,
I've just refunded the call charges from the invoice on the 1st March, really sorry about the delay there.

[#12]

Thanks Matt,

So I am no longer expected to send in a copy of my bank statements to get the promised refund. Why was I asked to provided those?
When you say you have refunded it I am assuming that means that you have started the PN refund process so it might take until April until the money find its way into my bank account. that will be four week for refunding money I told you Should not be taken from my bank account at all week before you decided to take it out anyway.
I wonder if PN will over charge me again in April and if they do if it will take a month to get that money back,
Tony

[#13]

Hi Tony,
Adam mentioned the bank statement above as proof against other charges - I'm sorry for the delay on refunding the already agreed call charges though.
Yes, I've started the refund process which should get the money back into your account within 7-10 working days.
I can't think of anything we've missed in our discussions that might lead to further overcharging, as you've agreed the home phone issue which was the cause of this has now been resolved?

[#14]

@TonyJames
It's not very clear above as to whether Plusnet has taken money from your Bank Account that was not covered by an invoice or did they take twice for the same invoice? (Note - I'm not talking about whether the invoice was correct or not!).

[#15]

The money taken was covered by an invoice and they did not take twice for any invoice.
In February they charged for line rental that had been paid for by line rental saver and in March they charged me for call charges that were already covered by the call package.
I was particularly upset by the charging for for the phone calls as I had suggested that from what they written on my account that they would charge for these phone calls while they suggested this would not happen, yet it did then appear on the invoice. Then they started to ask for copies of my bank statements before they would refund the call charge that were on the that on their system was marked as fully paid. I did explicitly instruct them not to use my Direct Debit to remove money to pay for the phone call charges.
Still waiting for any actual refund. I have been told that a refund has been given on this forum but there has been no official notification and no actual money returned to my bank account (I suppose that will arrive at the start of next month as PN claims it needs ten working days to give money back.
I hope the above clarifies the situation.
regards
Tony