Disconnection issues/service level

[#1]

Hi @JJmcneil

I have attached the latest test results from our radius logs showing the past 7 days of your connection.

Bar the odd drop during the day, there does not look to be any prolonged periods of disconnection and those drops we can see have reconnected fairly quickly. For reference, we would treat an intermittent fault as having 3 or more drops within 24 hours, or 6 or more within 72 hours. As @Townman has said, finding the source of intermittent faults is extremely difficult to pinpoint, especially when we're seeing very minimal, random drops in connection as the latest testing shows.

As the latest results show it is entirely possible that we wouldn't be able to get the line anymore stable than it currently is. As I have mentioned, we are not seeing drops in a quantity which would warrant an intermittent fault at present. Therefore, If we were to investigate this further this would involve another engineer visit and given the current situation at the moment, this will lead to some delay. We are just not able to prioritise intermittent or speed faults over customers who are vulnerable or without service completely.

I understand it is frustrating to not have a concrete resolution to this, but I wanted to make our position clear on this. I will be following up on the account ticket that is currently open as well.

[#2]

Hello @WillF 

I have replied via the support question. but if you look at the radius log, you'll see the 3 disconnects in one day that you now apparently need, and i indeed mentioned. 

i know you guys are under pressure. but you really need to read either case history or do a proper investigation, instead of a quicky line test and declaring everything to be correct, i lost count of how many times i have heard that. 

[#3]

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@JJmcneil wrote:

i was told by the latest openreach engineer that the line sounded fine. so i didnt buy a phone to test it. i dont own one.

That in itself is a real issue.  At the time the engineer checked your line, it was quiet.  At the time the circuit drops, it is probably not quiet.  Such is the nature of intermittent disconnections.  Therefore a telephone handset can be an essential diagnostic tool.

The recent radius log is far better than the previous ones.  The few drops you are encountering out not to be of significant impact.  I would suspect that they are of a different cause to the clusters you were experiencing.

At this juncture, detailed examination of the router stats might be helpful and if the router behaves nicely with stats plotting tools, graphing the stats can prove very useful.  Which router do you have?

[#4]

@Townman 

Its not the router. i have tried that and replaced it with another (something else im annoyed about - as i shouldnt have to spend my money on diagnosing a service im paying for) - non plusnet supplied/branded, with no improvement. i also cant be sat next to the phone waiting to test it at all hours just in case. in this instance i will refer to the OR engineer who tested it at the property, and has far better diagnostic equipment than I. it also reconnects almost immediately, so i doubt this test would show me any different. 

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The recent radius log is far better than the previous ones.  The few drops you are encountering out not to be of significant impact.  I would suspect that they are of a different cause to the clusters you were experiencing.

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I appreciate your suggestions Townman, i do. but i run web servers - so ANY disconnection is a problem. being "far better" is still not "fixed" - it is also not far better, a slight improvement overall, maybe. - i also have to work from home like may people. and the disconnections are a problem. they are also a fault - as told to me by 4 seperate OR engineers. and they need to be corrected. something i cannot contact OR about directly.    the problem is not caused by any of my equipment, i have gone to great lenghts and cost to assure that. and the entire drop line on my property to the router has been replaced also including new master socket 5c.    - i would have no issue with a drop once, maybe twice a month. stuff like that happens all the time. ( the apparent norm with broadband connections - my last isp using VDSL, according to my old router log had a line uptime of 92 days at its longest and maybe 10 disconnections over 2 years. this one with Plusnet has managed 5 days at its longest. )

- i have done this for years, run small servers for years, and run small networks for years, and while i have had issues with connections in the past with other isp's at other properties, i have never had this issue. the other ISP's also responded to it in a timely manner at the outset. and most of the problems i have ever had have been sorted within 5 working days and not taken nearly 4 months. (im not counting the last few weeks due to the obvious -and please do understand, that i know the pressures that people are under at the moment, im one of them.)

[#5]

No one suggested it is the router - router stats tell a great deal of what is happening on the line.

You want this fixed, testing shows no faults ... so it will inevitably will be down to you finding the evidence to profile the problem.  As I noted before, in my case it was certain Virgin trains running past a join in the over head wires.  The analysis (plots) even indicated the direction of travel.  Once identified, the issue was mitigated by raising the SNRM (a stat which can be seen in the router's stats) at the expense of some speed.

The opportunities remain in your hands.  If you run websites, you'll not find doing this rocket science.

A line drop has ZERO to do with which ISP you use - loss of sync is entirely down to BTOR infrastructure ... or noise in the environment.

Working from home - is this a business service?

Note if this service is so important for your work, then it should not be a residential service - not only is it not allowed under the T&Cs, residential services have a 72 hour (typical) repair time from BTOR.

https://www.plus.net/help/legal/terms/ [Plusnet Standard Terms]

2.1.3. use the services for personal use in the UK (so don't use the services to run your own business, but a couple of work emails or occasional home working are okay) and in accordance with our Acceptable Use Policy;

[#6]

i don't run a business from home. i run a couple of web servers, with low traffic. i make no money from them. as part of the addons to my account a static IP is also made avaliable for me to do this (see image) 

im also working from home, like a lot of people, are you now saying that im not allowed to do this? is this what plusnet has said? 

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A line drop has ZERO to do with which ISP you use - loss of sync is entirely down to BTOR infrastructure ... or noise in the environment.

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A line drop does have EVERYTHING to do with the ISP. as i have no ability to contact OR to fix it. the liability and responsibility lies with Plusnet and their infrastructure supplier.  take this from the OFCOM website

"Who is responsible for fixing the fault?

Your contract is with your provider, and they are responsible for ensuring faults are fixed, and for keeping you informed of progress."

 https://www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-telecoms-and-internet/advice-for-consumers/problems/broadband-landli... 

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You want this fixed, testing shows no faults ... so it will inevitably will be down to you finding the evidence to profile the problem.  As I noted before, in my case it was certain Virgin trains running past a join in the over head wires.  The analysis (plots) even indicated the direction of travel.  Once identified, the issue was mitigated by raising the SNRM (a stat which can be seen in the router's stats) at the expense of some speed.

The opportunities remain in your hands.  If you run websites, you'll not find doing this rocket science.

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I have the evidence that there is a problem. and the plusnet radius logs show the frequent disconnections. - THAT IS A FAULT.  4 Openreach engineers have said to me that this IS a fault. and that no broadband service should disconect in this manner. the frequent disconnections can themselves cause more issues. - if you truely believe that there is no fault in this, then you have no buisness handing out advise on a public forum, please allow the staff to deal with it. 

13th April -  5 disconnections

14th April - 3 disconnections

15th April - 3 disconnections

"the opportunities remain in your hands" - for what exactly? am i to spend yet more money on diagnosing an issue that OR themselves told me is a fault??  am i to identify the nearest passing train and write down its details? take photos perhaps?  my nearest train is just a smidge over 2 miles away, not sure that would be classed as an essential journey.

there are no substations near me, the disconnection conincide with no streetlights being switched off/on, my line to the cab is 320 meters long. i spent a whole 24hrs with nothing plugged in at my house, just to check.

What more do you suggest @Townman ? 

What i suggest, is that Plusnet talk to Openreach, as is there responsibility. -  i must just point out that i have since heard from a member of the Plusnet staff, and this is something they have assured me is being done. 

[#7]

May i just ask, just for the record, do you work for Plusnet @Townman ?

[#8]

No if I worked for Plusnet I would not be a SuperUser.

I have though had a lot of experience in bottoming out issues such as the ones you are describing.  Some effort from the user is essential, at least having a phone handset can be very helpful.

Yes, the ISP is your route to BTOR, but all ISPs have the same challenges - if the BTOR wholesale test system does not show a fault on YOUR line AT THE TIME OF TESTING it is difficult for them to get BTOR to attend - full stop.  You could change ISPs but you will have the same physical infrastructure owned by BTOR.  A loss of sync / connection between the home and the cabinet (FTTC) or the exchange (ADSL) is entirely a BTOR domain issue.

As for T&Cs Plusnet has always been clear that (in normal circumstances) residential services are not intended for extensive work from home use.  In the current circumstances, resources are stretched and are being applied to priority circumstances / users.  As you were advised by one of the staff members, at worst, your disconnection frequency is within BTOR's acceptable performance parameters.

Without sight of stats, without a hand set to listen to the line WHEN YOU HAVE DISCONNECTIONS you are leaving yourself without a route to resolution.

[#9]

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 As you were advised by one of the staff members, at worst, your disconnection frequency is within BTOR's acceptable performance parameters.

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As Plusnet evidenced themselves, and the disconnection logs i have, the issues i face are ABOVE what seems to be now required to be classified a fault. Openreach Itself, told me that it is a fault. 

there are also plenty of other ISP's that would class this as a fault. having spoken to three of them. 

[#10]

Hi @JJmcneil,

I've had a quick look into this one today and I can see that you currently have a complaint open with our High Level Escalations Team. If you have any queries surrounding this issue I would ask that you please update the ticket on your account so that your case handler may discuss the matter with your further.

[#11]

Other ISPs not having access to your line to run standard tests they are not in a position to make such assertions. You can describe a condition any they can presume circumstances which they cannot verify without running line tests. As I understand the latest update from Plusnet...

1. The line is - when tested - reporting no fault

2. The number of disconnections you are encountering is below the fault threshold set by BTOR

3. Even if you were able to get past 1 & 2 above, at present where testing from the socket is required (which I believe it would be for this kind of issue) BTOR are at present not doing home visits

Having given your problem more thought, there is one profile of problem occasionally found on ADSL services - broadband is dropped when an inbound call is presented on the line. Without a handset, you will be totally unaware of such events. This condition tends to be caused by a defective filter or a defective line card in the exchange.

Without a handset attached, we can never be sure that some automated cold calling service is not dialling numbers in sequence hoping that someone answers.

Edit: I see that whilst I was typing this Plusnet has advised that you have a HL complaints handler.

[#12]

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@Townman wrote:
Having given your problem more thought, there is one profile of problem occasionally hound on ADSL services - broadband is dropped when an inbound call is presented on the line. Without a handset, you will be totally unaware of such events. This condition tends to be caused by a defective filter or a defective line card in the exchange.

Without a handset attached, we can never be sure that some automated cold calling service is not dialling numbers in sequence hoping that someone answers.

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Writing as an ex-BT engineer, that's a very good point!

[#13]

@TheMightyAJ 

Yes, i do. i was trying to explain to @Townman  what was going on in respones to their request for information. for the moment, there isnt anything to add to that. thankyou

[#14]

@Townman  i have tried calling the line quite a few times to see if this was the case. - remembered back from a time when i had my first ADSL connection - without a phone attached and it did not correspond to any disconnection. i tried that in february and march.  

"  A loss of sync / connection between the home and the cabinet (FTTC) or the exchange (ADSL) is entirely a BTOR domain issue."

i shall repeat myself again, I HAVE NO RECOURSE WITH OPENREACH. - ANY fault/problem is the responsibility of the service provider, regardless if their infrastructure is supplied by a third party. so constantly stating that its OR and not plusnet that deal with it is both false, and a waste of time.   

- the Openreach engineer that visited my house said he had tested for that. Even if i did buy a corded phone to test, i cannot be next to the phone 24/7 to test it when it does happen. and im sick and tired of having the onus placed upon me to make sure the infrastructure is up to par. 3 seperate engineers have been sent to deal with this.  PLEASE understand that.  - as part of this, both the drop line from the overhead, and the internal box ( now a mastersocket 5c) have been replaced. 

The other ISP's i have spoken to may not be able to tell me if a fault exsists, but if you read it, thats not what i said. i said that they told me that the disconnections im having shouldnt be happening with the frequency that they are. and that they WOULD classify it as a fault. 

"2. The number of disconnections you are encountering is below the fault threshold set by BTOR"  - 

the first time i was told of that, was in this forum post by a staff member a few days ago. they quoted - "For reference, we would treat an intermittent fault as having 3 or more drops within 24 hours, or 6 or more within 72 hours."  - now, if you would like to count the amount on the radius log, it shows 3 in one day. then there is the disconnection log from my router (because i dont have access to the radius logs for the last few days)  on the 13th i had 5 disconnections, 14th i had 3 and 15th i had three. and today (16th) i have had another 3.  in 72 hours that makes 11. so yes. that is ABOVE THE THRESHOLD

you seem insistant to put the responsibility on me. im not going to continue the conversation with you any more because you either havent read the whole post, or ar willfully ignoring the information.