Can Plusnet cut back on the retrain aggressiveness after a rooter reboot?

[#1]

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@Kwak wrote:

I seem to remember a plusnet guy on the forum could tweak how aggressively retraining is done, it's a setting, is that still possible?

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@James30 wrote:

...isn't really a mode per say just a change in how aggressively the DLM makes changes to the SYNC rate and parameters based on how many drops and errors it sees. At the end of that if all is working as it should will leave you with a sync rate within your estimate. 

I'm sure other forum members who know more about the workings of the DLM will reply in time but that's the gist of it.

I think you are referring to DLM "stability profile",

see -

https://community.plus.net/t5/Broadband/DLM-stability-profile-change-on-Plusnet/m-p/1865904#M347688 

and more here -

https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/DLM.htm#dlm_stability_level 

[#2]

@Kwak 

What firmware version does your DrayTek Vigor 2850Vn  have installed ?

[#3]

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@James30 wrote:

Can I ask, why the ADSL? You know both FTTC and FTTP is available in your area.

Honestly, there's no point in changing settings when you could move to 900Mbps FTTP.  

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@Kwak wrote:

Thanks, I'm a bit worried now .. are you saying ADSL will be disabled if a fibre connection is available by end 2025?

I knew the PTSN (sp?) had an end date but I'd not heard that the ADSL had, I'd assumed from everything I'd heard we'd just put an adapter dongle into the router for phones, internet being internet once connected.

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The good news is that your existing Vigor 2850Vn router will continue to work when you upgrade to either SoGEA(VDSL2) or FTTP,  and you'll be able to plug your existing telephone handsets in to the router's 'VoIP' sockets (without an adapter dongle), once you've ported your landline phone number to a VoIP provider (such as A&A).

[#4]

@Mark280 

I stand to be corrected but as I understand it the ADSL signal is "injected" into the PSTN equipment for onward transmission to the consumer. Hence when PSTN goes there is no method of sending the signal hence no ADSL.

@Kwak 

Phone services apart, is there any reason not to move to FTTP if it's available?

Brian

[#5]

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@bmc wrote:

I stand to be corrected but as I understand it the ADSL signal is "injected" into the PSTN equipment for onward transmission to the consumer. Hence when PSTN goes there is no method of sending the signal hence no ADSL.

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I also stand to be corrected, but there is possibly a subtle nuance which complicates what you said.

When I was looking to have my FTTC connection switched to SOGEA (i.e. the analogue landline telephone gets disabled),  I researched whether there was any possibility that the copper pair between the PSTN equipment in the exchange, and the FTTC street cabinet (where the VDSL signal is "injected"), would get removed - in the hope that the wires to my home would halve in overall length and consequently increase my modem sync speeds.

What I discovered, is that with SOGEA, the exchange PSTN equipment remains connected because it isn't just the interface to the analogue telephone network, but it also incorporates line monitoring and test facilities that are still required to diagnose cable faults on VDSL only connections, which can't be done by the "VDSL injection" interface cards in the FTTC cabinets.

Therefore assuming ADSL signal "injection" is done in a similar way to VDSL "injection" (via jumper leads connected across the customer's copper landline),  my understanding is that the PSTN "switch off"  just involves disabling the analogue telephone audio signal from the "PSTN equipment", but the exchange equipment and wires remain in use until the copper landline is replaced by FTTP fibre.

As it turned out, and despite being told that switching from FTTC to SOGEA would make no difference in my broadband speeds, I did get a noticeable increase in modem sync speeds, with max attainable sync speeds changing from about 73/18Mbps to 86/21Mbps, so now I get the full 80/20Mbps SOGEA bandwidth as opposed to the previous 69/17Mbps on FTTC.

[#6]

@Anonymous 

I might just have corrected myself. See

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2023/11/openreach-launch-all-ip-solution-for-uk-adsl-broadband-lines.html

However, as I understand it, if FTTP is available then no other product can be ordered so the OP is limited in choice. Either continue as is or move to FTTP. SOTAP will not be an option as FTTP appears to be available

ADSL will go sometime for most as Exchanges get closed.

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2023/06/openreach-updates-on-pilot-for-national-uk-exchange-closures.html

Brian

[#7]

Re the ADSL mode - It's currently at:

ADSL2+(G.992.5)

SHOWTIME

1078000

17056517

6

25

This is hugely better than it was in that old thread. I want to make absolutely clear, there was a problem at the exchange, I spoke to the openreach engineer on the phone and he replaced it (didn't need to come to my house). It's been stable and fine since then, and at a much faster speed. (what's that.. 17 vs 6). It doesn't drop unless the router forces it.

[#8]

Re PSU, Oddly enough I've been meaning to check that, I do have a digital multimeter, I might check today.

I have an old PSU that's correct voltage but I think it had a lower current rating so ..

Re Firmware it's 3.8.8.2, I upgraded it a couple of years ago, that still seems to be the latest.

Re Diagnosing unexpected reboots, I'd looked at that page before, thanks. I did take some debug logs with intention of sending them to Draytek but it's an old router and never did. I think there might've been a pattern enought to make me think it was a software issue. I disabled things and I wasn't using and for a while was switching off VOIP if I wasn't using it which I think helped. IT's not restarting a LOT, it can go days without restarting, but then you might get two in a day.

[#9]

Re "why not upgrade". Well everything I have works (apart from this). I've the new fibre ports out in the street installed about 3 years ago so I know I can get an upgrade. I've also a second BT wired phone extension that is in use and that would be more hassle. From what I'd read when you get the fibre upgrade they disable the copper anyway so that would go. Also I assumed either my router would need to be replaced OR probably I'd need my router to switch mode to bridge mode or whatever the term is and go into a second router. I think there's a port on it marked WAN for that.

But now I look, looks like those port in my house would just be a standard ethernet port so I'd still be one router routing out the port on the wall, that's what you mean by:

"The good news is that your existing Vigor 2850Vn router will continue to work when you upgrade to either SoGEA(VDSL2) or FTTP,  and you'll be able to plug your existing telephone handsets in to the router's 'VoIP' sockets (without an adapter dongle)"

It'd be nice to have the minimum hassle. There will no doubt be many people wanting that and much discussion on it so no point getting into that here. Perhaps I could somehow use the existing wiring that'll not be attached to the exchange so legal for me to mess with.

[#10]

Final thought (I'm off topic now) is: is there "fancy" electronics (like a small fibre modem) in these BT/OpenReach wall ports, that will fail in X years? If so are they easily user replaceable and what is the expected lifespan?

I seem to be seeing images of them online that take a wall wart and some don't but I assume they do?

Can the user replace them? Is this setting up a "hamster wheel" of rolling replacements and engineer visits as they all start failing in a few years  .. or their power supply will? ..

I was surprised to hear when the engineer replaced my mains meter it'd only last 10 years and they'll have to keep coming back to replace them, seems a bit .. built in work and hassle intensive! The old dial ones had a huge lifetime. Good for the manufacturer I suppose.

[#11]

@Kwak 

https://support.aa.net.uk/Openreach_FTTP_ONT

Customers cannot replace them - it requires an engineer. The ONT needs to be "associated" with the fibre connection as far as I'm aware.

I suspect the ONT and PSU is like any other piece of electrical equipment. Some will fail while others last a lifetime.

Internal extensions can be used if the Master Socket is left in place. Once your phone line has "gone" you disconnect the incoming copper wire and then plug in an "extension" cable from your VOIP router. This is from memory.

Full Fibre is more stable than ADSL / FTTC and has the advantage that it will continue to work during power cuts if you have back up power. FTTC will only work for as long as the Cabinet backup lasts.

While upgrading is a hassle in most cases it's a one off and then you have a better connection. I would doubt if FTTP plus a VOIP account would cost much more (if at all) than you're currently paying.

Brian

[#12]

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@Anonymous wrote:

My thinking is that you should be able to configure the modem to a fixed modulation, rather than let the link establishment sequence step through all the modulation auto-detection permutations, and therefore likely reduce the re-sync time by going straight to the correct setting.

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@Kwak wrote:

Re the ADSL mode - It's currently at:

ADSL2+(G.992.5)

SHOWTIME

1078000

17056517

6

25

This is hugely better than it was in that old thread.

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Good, so back to my original thought. 

Your ADSL setting for "Modulation" is probably set to "Multimode", which means that on every line re-sync, your modem has to automatically figure out which DSL scheme it can connect with to give you the best performance. Potentially it might have to attempt connections using each of the modulation schemes listed below, before it chooses "ADSL2+(G.992.5)" -

To reduce the number of steps taken to determine the optimum "Modulation" scheme, try navigating to the screen shown below, and change ONLY the "Modulation" setting from "Multimode" to "ADSL2+(G.992.5)", and see if that improves your link establishment time ? (it can't make it any worse)

[#13]

Oh I see your thinking. And you've just helped I believe, indirectly

I checked that setting and I'd already set it (probably when trying to stop the line drops a year ago) to a forced adsl2+ / 5 setting.

But I looked elsewhere with that thought in mind and noticed under VDSL status it a pile of info and a profile "30a".

There is another page of VDSL settings and I've set it to 30a only. Also in setttings I noticed I could set it to VDSL/ADSL auto or JUST ADSL. I've set it to ADSL only as it said it was currently ADSL.

I've rebooted twice and it's connected virtually immediately just as I wanted. Straight in, bang.

It's a bit confusing why the router (assuming I'm only using ADSL) has a whole load of VDSL status info, I'm guessing internally there is shared functionality once it gets beyond a certain point and so it makes sense in the software to fill those values.

I say has .. that should be HAD. Now I've forced it to ADSL only, the VDSL status info that had a whole page of valid looking VDSL status values (and always did I've looked at it before).. is now just blank or dead. Strange. But it's working now and seems to behaving how I wanted. I'm thinking somehow it was interogating to see if VDSL would work then? I don't want to keep restarting the router today in case the exchange thinks I've line problems but that's 2 test = instant connection.

What would be very amusing is if this stopped the reboots as certainly it looks like some internal functionality may be switched off

[#14]

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@Kwak wrote:

... I assumed either my router would need to be replaced OR probably I'd need my router to switch mode to bridge mode or whatever the term is and go into a second router. I think there's a port on it marked WAN for that.

... ... ...

... Perhaps I could somehow use the existing wiring that'll not be attached to the exchange so legal for me to mess with.

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If you upgraded from ADSL2+ to SOGEA (i.e. FTTC without analogue phone service), then your existing wiring wouldn't change, as the ADSL cable to the BT phone socket would work just the same on VDSL, and your current router configuration would auto-detect that it is now connected to VDSL.

If you changed from ADSL (copper wires) to FTTP (optical fibre), then your old phone master socket would be replaced by a BT Openreach "ONT",  which you would connect with an Ethernet cable to your router's port marked "4/WAN".

Either upgrade will mean that you would need to consider whether you can lose your landline telephone, or port the number to a VoIP provider, and run your house telephones from the "Phone1/2" VoIP socket on your router.

[#15]

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@Kwak wrote:

Oh I see your thinking. And you've just helped I believe, indirectly

... ... ...

There is another page of VDSL settings and I've set it to 30a only. Also in setttings I noticed I could set it to VDSL/ADSL auto or JUST ADSL. I've set it to ADSL only ...

I've rebooted twice and it's connected virtually immediately just as I wanted. Straight in, bang.

Yep that would do it !  😀

For what it's worth, if you do upgrade to SOGEA, then the selected VDSL profile should be "17a", not "30a"