No broadband from day 1.

[#1]

Thanks for your reply.
This is getting beyond pathetic now. We wait almost a week to get an engineer, and then the engineer can't find the fault. I can't think of another industry where this would be considered acceptable. I genuinely sick of being treated like this.

[#2]

That means the engineer did not look hard enough. This is an in exchange tied pair issue.

[#3]

So, I've had it confirmed that it is now back in the hands of Openreach. Openreach have not provided an estimated timescale. In the meantime we are expected to just sit on our hands and wait. 

[#4]

The job was passed back to Openreach at ~8am this morning. Since then their diagnostics team have remotely looked into this as a repeat fault and we’re just waiting for an engineer of the right skilset to be assigned, the delay is largely due to engineer availability. Apologies I know it’s not a good start of your service with us. 

[#5]

"not a good start of your service with us." it's complete and utter failure. It's a failure of service and a failure of support. Appalling. Stop blaming other people for the terrible service you are providing.

[#6]

How do you think this space works?

Do you think that Plusnet (and every other ISP) runs the technology themselves?

BT Openreach manage the kit.
BT Wholesale manage the broadband products delivered over the kit
Retail ISPs sell the products to consumers

This is BTOR / BTW issue so who else is to blame? Who is to blame if not BTOR / BTW?

If you buy your gas from Bulb and there is a break in the mains, it’s not Bulb who are to blame but Cadet. The same applies here.

[#7]

Please do not speak to me like that.

I make it very clear that I understand that Openreach are responsible for the equipment.

I am making the point that I have a contract with Plusnet. If I do not have access to the internet it is their problem to sort out. Your gas analogy confirms my point. If there is an interruption to my gas supply I blame my gas supplier, I really don't care who's supplying them or where it's come from or who is responsible for the supply equipment. 

[#8]

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@GPears wrote:
Stop blaming other people for the terrible service you are providing.

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Statements such as this do not help anyone.  It reflects a lack of understanding of where the problem is and who has the means to fix it and the difference between blame (accountability) for failure and responsibility for seeking resolutions.

Plusnet does have the responsibility to chase their suppliers for resolution, which they are doing, but the blame for this being protracted is the internal processes within their supplier organisations - BT Openreach and BT Wholesale.  If we wish to see improvements in the delivery of services we need to be clear about who is accountable for failure and clearly place the blame in front of them.  One also needs to understand who does what and what each party can (or cannot) do.  Plusnet cannot go into the exchange and fix this issue - that is down to BT Openreach and BT Wholesale.

A lack of such understanding simply brings about unfulfillable expectations and a lack of understanding that the people trying to rectify your world, are dealing with matters over which they have little control.  All that they can do is engage with their suppliers to chase for resolution; if BT says 48 hours response time, sorry but they set the rules, they are to blame and that is unfortunately what will happen.  It is shocking, shameful, unacceptable, but that is what it is - a quasi nationalised industry still operating as though they are the old GPO Telephones.

Ultimately the blame for this whole debacle is Ofcom itself as it has repeatedly failed to regulate the behaviours of BT Wholesale and BT Openreach in situations such as yours - they have no urgency or end to end ownership of issues.  They do the micro-step in front of them and pass the problem back to the ISP - service fixed or not.  Each pass takes another 48 hour process (BT response times).  It is not fit for purpose and the blame lays entirely within the two BT supply divisions which blights all ISPs alike, including BT Retail and Plusnet.  The different BT Divisions do not work together in any shape of form, indeed at times it appears that they work against each other, notably BTOR & BTw owning as little accountability for their failures as they can get away with.

As for the gas service comparison, you are wrong - consumers go direct to the National Gas Services (Cadet) for supply issues, not their billing party.  See Emergencies and safety advice | National Grid Gas

[#9]

Keep telling me I am wrong, keep saying it over and over again, but Plusnet supply my internet, they are responsible for it, nobody, other than you, cares who is responsible, it does not change the outcome, the service has been terrible.

As for the gas thing??? Seriously??? You think that won your argument??? I still blame my gas supplier for a lack of gas supply!! 

Has your input to this situation improved the outcome in any way? 

[#10]

If you buy your gas from Bulb and there is a break in the mains, it’s not Bulb who are to blame but Cadet. The same applies here.

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No it doesn't. Both electricity and gas do have distribution companies that are responsible for the supply of electricity or gas, but there is a big difference in the legal framework compared to OpenReach.

The gas and electricity distribution companies (e.g. Cadent) are consumer facing - a member of the public can contact then directly. They have a legal obligation to deal with supply issues.

OpenReach are not consumer facing - a broadband customer cannot contact them directly and must go through their ISP. The customer has no contractual or legal relationship with OpenReach. It is the ISP's responsibility to resolve any issues their customers have. Now, that may involve shouting at OpenReach (or others), but it should not involve abdication of responsibility by simply blaming OpenReach.

[#11]

Thank you corringham, you have put it so much more eloquently than I was managing. 

[#12]

@corringham - but there has been no abdication of responsibility here by the ISP - they are seeking resolution within the constraints imposed by their supplier. No we don’t like it and we can stamp our feet as much as we want, but the infrastructure supplier is still to blame for the mess they have caused.

They failed to verify the service worked when commissioned.

Their engineer failed to find the fault.

They failed to own the problem end to end.

They keep passing the buck back to the ISP.

If BTOR took primary ownership for managing faults in their network, they too would have a consumer facing interface … just as do other infrastructure providers.

BTOR make up the business rules which fail end users and their customers (ISP) alike … and that is indeed where the blame lays. Recognition of that is the first step in seeking improvement

[#13]

Townman, I think the only way forward is to agree to disagree. 

[#14]

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@Townman wrote:
 the infrastructure supplier is still to blame for the mess they have caused.

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But they have no contractual obligation to the OP, and blaming them does absolutely nothing to resolve the issue. It is up to Plusnet to resolve the issue as they have the contractual obligation to the OP.

Repeating the "it's OR's fault" mantra does not help, no matter how many times you repeat it.

[#15]

Do not disagree in the slightest about the obligation to resolve the issues.  If Plusnet had thrown their hands in the air and said "There is nothing we can do here, BTOR is to blame..." and walked away from the matter then there might have been some merit calling such a blame "game".  Plusnet has not done this, they are still seeking resolution with BTOR / BTw.

Understanding the characteristic of any problem - who can do what, who needs to do what - helps greatly in arriving at a solution.  I do though understand that some folk have no interest in understanding that the world is complex, but just want someone to shout at.

FWIIW I had a while back escalated this case, which is why I understand where the issue (and the blame) lays - AIUI it is a hand-off matter between BTw and BTOR.  The situation is abhorrent and BTOR and BTw need to get a fix sorted between them, without the need for persistent ISP intercedence, but the ISPs do not control the rules book.