Packet Loss / High latency in evenings

[#1]

I have been a plus.net customer for very many years and up to the last year the service has been superb. For some time now, in the evenings and often on Friday's the service is very slow with moments of high latency. This impacts working from home, steaming TV (sometimes this is impossible) and gaming performance for my son.

I work in IT so have good level of knowledge. We now have a HUB 2 and use orbi wifi mesh in the home. When the performance is bad, it also affects cabled devices. On the wifi it does not matter if I use the Hub 2 wifi or my Orbi Mesh (my hub2 wifi is currently disabled).

I know that 'pings' get impacted by traffic priority, however, I often see normal response of circa 30ms then rises to several hundred ms response and when it is bad it is often high or packet loss. 

An example of this, last night I could not stream Amazon Prime on my Google TV, it just would not load and then this morning I was able to load within 2-3 seconds. 

I have been on to Plus.net support and they can't find anything wrong and used the automated test service via SMS and that is OK. Of course the worse periods are in the evenings when the support lines are shut.

The performance of the service is so bad that if I was not in contract then I would change provider despite having been a loyal customer for many many years.

Any ideas?

[#2]

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@smyth1492 wrote:

... ... I work in IT so have good level of knowledge.

... ... I know that 'pings' get impacted by traffic priority, however, I often see normal response of circa 30ms then rises to several hundred ms response and when it is bad it is often high or packet loss. 

... ... ...  Any ideas?

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Have you checked your bufferbloat grade ?  - you should be getting an "A+", "A" or "B" to avoid the problem you describe.

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[#3]

@smyth1492 

In addition to above I suggest you enable ICMP in the Hub two found in firewall setting and set up a Broadband Quality Monitor (BMQ)

Details found here https://www.thinkbroadband.com/broadband/monitoring/quality 

HTH

[#4]

Bufferbloat - interesting, a new one on me and the results are not good

https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=795c1fff-6c62-421e-ad35-0a0d4744a1d8

[#5]

@smyth1492 

For comparison I have run the test on my wireless laptop and my results are very much the same with my Hub Two, the wireless link speed is shown as 390/433 (Mbps) in network properties.

See https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=d6154220-f9de-4474-9704-13beddbc05fc 

QOS can not be configured on a Hub Two.

The Hub Two  Orbi Mesh connection, is it hardwired or wireless?

[#6]

It will be interesting to see whether there is a big rise in complaints about the Hub Two,  as Plusnet customer's start moving their landline phones to VoIP,  and 'digital' calls start dropping or sounding like 'robot voice' when the router's bufferbloat grade is worse than a "B" rating ?.

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[#7]

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@smyth1492 wrote:

Bufferbloat - interesting, a new one on me and the results are not good

Just for comparison, this is what I get using a router with QoS tweaked for optimum results -

[#8]

Plus.net hub to Orbi is hardwired.

[#9]

Surely the solution cannot be replacement router/modem and wireless that needs tuning. We can't have the population doing this to reduce problems.

I guess now I need to research suitable replacement devices and console myself with the environmental impact of removing obsolete items that still have many years of working life

[#10]

@Anonymous 

If the issue is caused by bufferbloat then it might be possible to configure the current hardware.

If the Orbi mesh support QOS then an option would be to switch the Hub Two to 'bridge mode' and set the Orbi Mesh WAN to use PPPoE.

@smyth1492 

At the time of the issues reported what is happening on your network, multiple streaming and gaming? As a busy network could also cause the issue.

Can you please post a screen shot of the Hubs technical page found in advanced settings

[#11]

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@Dan_the_Van wrote:

If the Orbi mesh support QOS then an option would be to switch the Hub Two to 'bridge mode' and set the Orbi Mesh WAN to use PPPoE.

Yes that should work.

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[#12]

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@smyth1492 wrote:

Surely the solution cannot be replacement router/modem and wireless that needs tuning. We can't have the population doing this to reduce problems.

The answer for Plusnet, would be to update the Hub Two's firmware to include anti-bufferbloat QoS measures, and to silently enforce higher traffic priorities on VoIP, DNS, and ACKs, etc.

That would have zero environmental cost to automatically update all TR-069 connected Hub Two routers, and will result in a lot fewer customers complaining about latency related issues !

[#13]

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@Dan_the_Van wrote:

At the time of the issues reported what is happening on your network, multiple streaming and gaming? As a busy network could also cause the issue.

Nope, it is logical to think that,  but with properly set up QoS (even on ADSL)  I have NEVER managed to overload my network even if every device in the house was simultaneously doing something ridiculous in an attempt to break it.

QoS should share the load in a "fair" and prioritised manner, so yes some devices might slow somewhat due to sharing the available bandwidth, but the internet connection should never break down due to being overloaded - which is what you're getting close to when the bufferbloat latency "Upload Active" result gets into the hundreds of milliseconds as is showing in both of your results.

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[#14]

@Anonymous 

I wasn't talking about properly setup QOS

Isn't the point of the bufferbloat test to stress the broadband connection to an extreme? So for a day to day user they wouldn't notice anything wrong whilst browsing, reading emails, shopping or streaming. 

Bandwidth can only be used once, the more used the slower the data is transferred, issues might start to arise when there are line issues or problems outside of a users premises.

I have not encountered armageddon with my broadband connection and have not noticed any issue which would excite you regarding the possibility of bufferbloat.

[#15]

Yes when the circuit is loaded the problem is compounded so with TV streaming and gaming at the same time its worse. At home now on my own internet browsing its fine.

I don't think you can put the Hub2 in 'bridge' mode, the Orbi is set to work with an external router so no double-nat. QoS on the Orbi is automatic. 

Looking at different routers, some of the Amazon eero devices support SQM but you still need an external modem. Will not replacing the modem be OK or do I need to replace the modem as well? (I am thinking ahead to when we eventually get fibre to the home, this will require a different modem)

Ultimately, is the only way forward to change the devices I am using?