No firmware updates?

[#1 · Accepted solution]

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@supernoodles wrote:

With regards to it possibly being QoS related as far as i can see the hub one doesn't have QoS just like the Hub two doesn't.

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My theory -

A few years ago, several customers complained that using their Hub One to upload large files (for backups, Google drive, YouTube, etc), would cause the DSL connection to timeout and break the file transfer. 

It was found that if the uploading program could be set to limit the sending rate such that the upload speed didn't exceed the DSL upload bandwidth, then the file upload would succeed.  However if the upload rate limit was too high, then the Hub One got overwhelmed and would eventually break the connection.

A firmware fix for this was implemented and the problem seems to have not reoccurred.  How that firmware actually solved the problem was never revealed, but there aren't many possibilities given that the hardware is what it is.  Speculating, it could have been achieved by better modem upload buffer management, or the transmit buffer in the router's RAM made bigger, or perhaps more aggressive LAN to WAN flow control handshaking to reduce the volume of incoming LAN/WiFi packets sooner when the transmit buffer was becoming full. 

Anyway, having an improved upload control would give the same effect as having implemented as simple QoS scheme, or basic anti-bufferbloat rate limiting.  Therefore while the Hub One might not have a true QoS with a user interface to control various parameters, it might handle upload traffic better than a Hub Two, especially if that anti-bufferbloat code wasn't carried across in to the Hub Two firmware.

[#2]

The fact that your wired PC (via powerline adaptor) shows an upload problem in the bufferbloat test result,  and @Dan_the_Van  gets a similar result on his Hub Two,  then that would suggest that a replacement Hub Two would likely give the same result.  Just carry on using the Hub One if that solves the ping problem for you.

I hadn't ever done the bufferbloat test over powerline adaptors, so I wanted to make sure your wired test wasn't a result of latency in your powerline link,  so I got out my old Devolo 500 powerline adaptors and tested a laptop for bufferbloat, and got a marginally worse (+3ms) result than the screenshot I posted earlier.  Therefore powerline adaptors are unlikely to introduce any significant latency problems, but it is likely that your PC is showing that the Hub Two has a bufferbloat problem,  but then again most ISP free routers will be the same.

[#3]

@Anonymous - I recall that Hub One issue, and from memory, is was failure to prioritise LCP keepalive responses that led to the PPP drops. It was fairly noticeable on Plusnet lines at the time as we still had a lot of 40/2 connections in the estate.

Having read through this thread, I would honestly be very surprised if a replacment hub exhibited different behaviour.

@supernoodles - I assume you have an FTTC connection? i.e. you're using the DSL port rather than the WAN port on the Hub Two?

[#4]

@Anonymous Fantastic explanation of the issue seems like maybe something the hub two needs applying to it as well

@bobpullen Yeah i am on the plusnet fibre extra 80/20 package using the DSL port i basically get the max speed my package allows

I think for now as recommended i'll switch back to the hub one and hope that this issue gets fixed in the future on the hub two

[#5]

Alright back on the hub one and everything is basically perfect again.

PC Bufferbloat result doesn't seem to want to be better than a B but the upload latancy is certainly much better lol

https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=2e1de175-8014-44af-8446-65243f39b36e

Phone bufferbloat is a lovely A again

https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=f2fdfda1-f9e7-4709-a494-0ff0f521a587

Zero lag on either PS5's via the 5Ghz when running speedtests / facebook video's or tiktok's 🎉

i noticed the firmware on this router is 4.7.5.1.83.8.289.1.1 and the latest is 4.7.5.1.83.8.289.1.3 are there any major changes and if possible could i have it pushed to the hub pretty please? @bobpullen  after that i think its safe to say we can consider this thread solved 🎉🍰🎈

Massive thank you to all of you for your input i learned a massive amount thank you and a huge thanks to @Anonymous until yesterday i had no clue what bufferbloat was and you made it very clear to understand!

Here's hoping i can return to using the hub two again someday lol!

[#6]

@supernoodles - I'll need the serial of the Hub One. Feel free to send it across in a private message.

[#7]

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@bobpullen wrote:

@supernoodles - I'll need the serial of the Hub One. Feel free to send it across in a private message.

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All done

[#8]

@bobpullen Firmware update received just need to reboot my router when i'm home i'll consider this thread now solved!

But one last question any plans to see if the issue the hub two is having is the same as the hub one was having? would love to go back to using it again in the future!

Again thanks all!