+/- 1 megabit?

[#1]

Quote

Undo the FTTC installation, restore the ADSL service, and say sorry you can't have FTTC, it turns out you're just too far from the cabinet, you'll have to stick with your 3Mbps ADSL?

would be the only  viable option , as the other 3 choices ,not a chance

[#2]

Quote from: EnglishMohican

Quote from: Kelly You are comparing apples and oranges. I would be paying with pounds for both.

But you are paying for an estimated service.

Quote from: EnglishMohican

Quote from: Kelly There is a significant difference between pouring the same amount of milk into a milk carton each time and ensuring that you are getting speeds to an estimate through multiple miles of connectivity equipment.  Three thoughts - FIrst thought - perhaps if you had spent time designing the kit that fills thousands of cartons with a precise amount of milk an hour without splashing it all over the place you would not be so dissmissive.

A factory designed to put milk into cartons is a significantly more controlled environment than a countrywide telecoms network with different distances, materials and technology.  I'm not being dismissive, you're oversimplifying it a bit.

Quote from: EnglishMohican

Second thought. As I am sure you do know, electronics and communication technology is a science. If you know the properties of the wires and their lengths you can perform remarkably good calculations as to how they will perform. The problem seems to be that the Openreach database is full of errors - on my own line they offer an estimate on basic ADSL that is way in excess of anything that is ever going to be possible. An Openreach engineer explained that probably the database used to calculate the estimate contained the wrong data - that my line length was for my previous house or whatever. That is not professional, competent, statistical estimating - it is not even guesswork.

It would be possible to install an FTTC line into every house around the country, then run a speed test off it to populate that database.  That would be the accuracy you wanted.  However the costs of that would be extreme and you wouldn't want to pay for it.
Estimates are estimates.  They are worked out from what Openreach know about the area, the exchange, the technology that's there, the distance of the building from the cabs.  They can't test all those lines though.  There have been estimates made where the building looks close to the cab but it turns out the wiring is significantly different and goes a non-expected route.
It gets even more complicated when you consider that things entirely out of Openreach's control could impact your speeds.  I'm thinking REIN interference causing problems.
Happily, most people find their estimates seem pretty good, and we'll do what we can to try and improve speeds where those estimates aren't being met.

Quote from: EnglishMohican

Third thought - you have not answered the question in my previous post - does Plusnet/Openreach guarantee any level of performance  irrespective of the estimate. If so - is it 20Mbps?

There is a the OFCOM code of practice on Speeds which includes some guidance around what happens if you can't achieve your estimates.  Also, we'd be reasonable.  I.e. if you aren't getting any better performance than you'd get on copper, we'd look at what we could do.  There are no "guarantees" though.
http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/telecoms/codes-of-practice/broadband-speeds-cop/voluntary-codes-of-...

[#3]

Quote from: Kelly

But you are paying for an estimated service.

Without a confidence interval, an estimate is meaningless. That's a mathematical fact - not just me being difficult.

Quote from: Kelly

It would be possible to install an FTTC line into every house around the country, then run a speed test off it to populate that database.  That would be the accuracy you wanted.

Now you are over simplifying Yes, of course that would be possible but then it would be a measurement that was being quoted, not an estimate. I am asking for an estimate with a confidence interval and some defined corrective action when the confidence interval is breeched.

Quote from: Kelly

There have been estimates made where the building looks close to the cab but it turns out the wiring is significantly different and goes a non-expected route.

Are you seriously telling me that BT base their estimates on how the crow flies distances rather than knowing the route/distance that their ducts take? In any case, I have ADSL so they know the performance of the line from the exchange to my house. If they install fibre to my cab, they surely take measurements to establish the difference between the exchange/cab copper and exchange/cab fibre lines. Some arithmetic could then give them a good estimate of what I would receive, an estimate good enough to base a commitment on.

Quote from: Kelly

.... we'll do what we can to try and improve speeds where those estimates aren't being met. .... we'll do what we can to try and improve speeds where those estimates aren't being met. Also, we'd be reasonable. ............ we'd look at what we could do.

But these are the sort of meaningless phrases that I have a problem with. None of these phrases actually commit you to more that 30 seconds thought and then you could decide you can do nothing. This is marketing speak.

Quote from: Kelly

There is a the OFCOM code of practice on Speeds which includes some guidance around what happens if you can't achieve your estimates.

I read it and was unimpressed. Its full of "significant shortfall" leaving "signicant" undefined, "transfer to a  lower speed package" but "where one is offered". Its totally toothless.
I think you must all be tired of my views by now so I will not pursue this thread further except to say that you stand no chance of getting me to sign up to an 18 month contract where I am committed to paying you money for a service that you willnot/cannot define in a scientifically meaningful way. I am not buying marketing speak and wild optimism.

[#4]

Interesting post on this blog relating to FTTC speeds: http://revk.www.me.uk/2013/05/the-rules-of-fttc.html

[#5]

Quote from: Kelly

Estimates are estimates.  They are worked out from what Openreach know about the area, the exchange, the technology that's there, the distance of the building from the cabs.  They can't test all those lines though.  There have been estimates made where the building looks close to the cab but it turns out the wiring is significantly different and goes a non-expected route. It gets even more complicated when you consider that things entirely out of Openreach's control could impact your speeds.  I'm thinking REIN interference causing problems.

Estimates are indeed estimates but they should be informed by known data.  If BTOR do not know where their own cables / ducts run then they are even bigger idiots that I already take them for.  The long and the short of all of this is BTOR are ducking and diving rather than investing their many £m profit into fixing ancient poor infrastructure - especially in rural areas.  PN have done a great job in harassing BTOR to get my (business) circuit fixed, so that it delivers something more like what it should for the line characteristics.  The journey has not been helped by E-Side circuits spec'd at 36dB attenuation only delivering 47dB attenuation.  This suggests a fault which ought to be rectified - Oh NO that means opening up the air tight E-Side trunks and might mean replacing some cable... cannot do that as it will cost money.
As for the D-Side that suffers from West Coast Main Line Virgin Train REIN.  The source of REIN might possibly be outside of BTOR's control, but protection from it should come from the provision of circuits / cable appropriate for the environment and / or BTOR should be seeking elimination of such sources of REIN under the interference to / with telecommunications legislation.
BTOR is little more than a stream of excuses for not fixing their monopoly supplier position.

[#6]

Quote from: townman

BTOR is little more than a stream of excuses for not fixing their monopoly supplier position.

I totally agree with this, and where Openreach are failing to come upto the mark, other than Plusnet going to great lengths to resolve individual customer problems, I see little reassurance that Openreach are truly being taken to task.