Home move - 1 month and still waiting...

[#1]

Posted elsewhere for visibility - first post here - unfortunately it has to be a complaint.
House move for phone and broadband requested for the 08/10/2014 - up until now have been a happy Plusnet customer. 1 month after the move (nearly) and still waiting for provision of broadband with no end in site.
Moved from a fibre enabled area to a rural location, however the property I have moved into had a working phone on the day of the move (working as in live, not working as in able to make calls - that took antoher 6 days and a few calls to Plusnet!). There's a BT Openreach branded faceplate on the phone socket, so I assume it would have had a working broadband service at some point in the past?
My issue I have is that I'm constantly being fed excuses for non-provision of the broadband service. Started off as the vague 'We need to chase our suppliers' to 'work required at the line plant' to now 'pair divert and associated cabling'. Dates for each activity appear as nothing more than placeholders for Plusnet, and they appear to not care if they update you or indeed if any work was carried out at all.
Other than the initial acceptance of the order, Plusnet have not commited to a date for completion. At each 'update' date, there is just another date and another excuse given. At each update the inferrence is that the next set of work should result in me getting the service activated. So far these are all empty promises.
If this is just Openreach's issue, why do Plusnet accept this response from them? Why can they not get a commitment for a service date from them? Just as importantly, why do they think it's acceptable to feed the same BS to thier own customers? Or is this the way Plusnet treat all customers when they need their help? Is this what you call award-winning customer service?
Plusnet will probably lose me as a customer over this - I can't continue indefinately without any broadband, or a firm date for provision of such. I won't continue to pay to be treated in this manner.
Has anyone else had a similar experience? Did you eventually get the service installed or did you get frustrated by and fed up with Plusnet's response?
Andy

[#2]

Andy,
Welcome to PlusNET and the forums.  Sorry to hear of your trials and tribulations.
Sadly the problem you describe is legion.  There are huge issues with Openreach on line take overs and migrations.  These range from Ofcom imposed rules through total screw-ups in BTOR order management systems to infrastructure provisioning issues.  Once a line is "ripped down" getting it put back up is a ball ache.
I read of another case today (migration from BT to PlusNET) where BT Retail not only unilaterally ceased the line but also instructed a "dispense with" (not sure of the actual technical term) which results in the property being designated as having no phone line - despite the tail end still being there.  On a migration the loosing provider should do NOTHING.  One is tempted to wonder if this is deliberate sabotage by BT Retail or some cunning plan between BT Retail and BT Wholesale driving up line change revenues.  A ceased line needs to be re-provisioned attracting a reconnection fee from the new provider.
Fixing this is really hard work for suppliers.  Openreach engineer no shows are also legion.
These issues are giving a mammoth work load for all ISPs - this does not solve your problem, but does set the industry context.
I'm sure PlusNet's CRT will get whatever angle grinders they can on this problem, short of their CEO bending the ears of BTOR.
Hope this is soon sorted,
Kevin

[#3]

Hi Kevin,
Thanks for the info.
I realise most of my delay is down to Openreach. Unfortunately my contract is with Plusnet, and it is they who need to get a grip of their supplier and provide accurate and meaningful updates to me. If in the beginning they had said, this may take 4 to 5 weeks, I could have made arrangements to work around the issue for that time and this wouldn't be the problem for me that it now is.
Instead they have taken the route of providing me with either no updates (until I contact them), or generic 'line plant' work is required with the suggestion that this time it will result in provision of service. What is now obvious is that they (Plusnet) have no idea if the work is actually being carried out, when it will finish and whether or not it will result in the requested service. They seem happy to string me along in the hope I'll just suck it up and keep paying till the next update, at which point another update date is created...rinse and repeat.
I have verbally asked Plusnet 'Can you provide me with broadband - yes or no?' - they couldn't even commit to a straight answer to that question - that's where my frustration is coming from...

[#4]

Andy,
I do not disagree with any aspect of what you say, however the reality is that PlusNET have no more clue about what is happening than BTOR tell them.  That is where the real issue is.
At the start of an order / provision, PlusNET have no specific information about YOUR line from which a delivery estimate can be made.  Indeed in many circumstances it is evident that BT has not got a clue either.  Stories of BTOR attending to provision a new line find that there are no spare workable pairs in the cabinet and thus new cables are required.  In some areas the local telephone infrastructure is a complete shambles!
This makes it extremely difficult to manage expectations.  I can assure you that once sorted, over billing will be fixed - from experience PlusNET are very good at that even down to refunding just 15p for an incorrectly phone call! 
I expect Linn - the provisioning guru - will soon be over your case like a rash...
Kevin

[#5]

Hi FibreToTheCat,
Sorry to hear of the delays you've encountered with your orders for your new property. I appreciate the delay is frustrating, especially when the information we're able to provide is limited.

Quote

'Can you provide me with broadband - yes or no?'

The answer is yes, once the external work has been successfully completely by BT Openreach.
As it stands there aren't any spare pairs (connections) in the distribution point so BT Openreach are having to create a pair divert from the DP and cabinet to your property. As "easy" as this concept may be the actual work can be extremely complex and time consuming.
Distribution Point (DP) - This is the point close to a property where the main cable from the PCP is split in order to provide service at one or more localised premises. A DP can be at the top of a telegraph pole (Overhead DP), under a walkway (Underground DP) or on the side of a building
PCP - Part of the line plant, in the form of a metal cabinet at the roadside, that enables flexibility between the main cables from the exchange and the smaller cables to individual streets or premises
I appreciate that this is causing you to want to go with another provider, however, Cable is not available in your area and you will find that it's likely that any other ISP won't be able to provide you with broadband any faster than we can as we all (apart from Virgin cable) rely on BT Openreach to complete the required work to provide you with broadband. Not to mention, your cabinet is 20CN only and Market 1 which means that you're limited to the providers available to you.
I have contacted BT Openreach this morning and they've informed me that they expect the pair divert work to be completed by 06/11/2014, however, this isn't guaranteed. Once the pair divert is completed there is also cabling work to follow which is why our Provisioning team have passed on the information provided by BT Openreach to them which is that the estimated completion date of 13/11/2014.
These dates are all provisional and there's every possibility that it may be delayed depending on the complexity of the work required. I've been informed that the cabling work may require underground dig work which may cause further delays if roads needs to be closed down in order for the work to be carried out. If this is the case BT Openreach need to get in contact with your local council and the traffic management team who will arrange traffic diversion. Unfortunately this isn't a process that is done overnight.
I'd love to be able to guarantee a date when you'll finally have broadband working in your new property, however, based on the information above it's not possible for me to do so. We want to get your broadband up and running as quickly as possible, we don't gain anything by delaying this. At the end of the day, we are a business, every day that we aren't able to provide you with the broadband service is a day that we cannot charge you for that service (even though you're being charged whilst the house move is in place you will be refunded for every day you were without the service once it's installed). It is no way, shape or form, beneficial for us to delay your services from being installed.
Our Provisioning team will continue to monitor this Ticket: 91853541 for you, however, if you need our input please don't hesitate to let us know.

[#6]

Linn,
I just re-read this thread...

Quote

however the property I have moved into had a working phone on the day of the move (working as in live, not working as in able to make calls - that took antoher 6 days and a few calls to Plusnet!)

I had rather got "sucked in" to the cabling requirement message and forgot the opening statement.
This suggests that Andy has (or had) a working POTS service after he moved in... if that is the case, what is the difficulty in enabling ADSL on this line?  Andy has not stated which BB service he ordered, however the reference to rural and 20CN market 1 somewhat implies ADSL.
Is there a possibility of confusion here or is there a line fault requiring new cables?  That is his phone service is not now functional.  Possibly even his d-side or e-side got stolen to fix someone else's line issue?  Such practices by BTOR / sub contractors are not unheard of!
If there is a working POTS service, why would the suggested work be required to provide BB?
Kevin

[#7]

@Townman - I was about to ask the same question but you beat me to it. The original post implies that there is a working phone service and the OP is waiting for Broadband. So what's all the line work for?  Is there some confusion between PlusNet and BT Wholesale/Openreach. It has been known to happen.

[#8]

Hi Towman - Good question.
The reason the extra line plant work is required is because there is a DACS on the line.
@Andy, DACS (Digital Access Carrier System) is a device that splits a phone line into two, allowing for the use of a single line to provide phone services to two customers. In most circumstances, DACS must be removed from the line before a broadband order will complete.The resolution time varies and is dependent on the location of the DACS and the complexity of its removal. At the very least, the removal will take 7 days; however, in some more complex instances, it can take several months.
We have been advised that your DACS is located on the telephone pole. As there are no spare lines available, a pair divert is being carried out in order to provide you with a broadband connection. This means that the physical line is being replaced and diverted from another pole which is free from DACS. We have been advised that the pair divert will be done by the 6th of November and the cabling about a week later however, if they experience any issues with either of these activities or experience a resource issue, the estimated completion date will change. We hope that this will be a simple issue and no dig work required however we won't know until an engineer physically goes out.
I appreciate that this is very frustrating and I'm sorry that you weren't advised of this when you signed the account up. There is no way for us to check where a DACS would be on a line before we place an order which is why we couldn't advise there would be a delay.
We will certainly check your order on the 7th and provide you with an update. If you do have any further queries, please don't hesitate to ask.
Many thanks
Alex.

[#9]

Alex,
Sorry for the added pain and thank you for doing the extra to explain more clearly this somewhat unusual circumstance.
If the BT faceplate Andy referred to is a SSFP (ADSL) - as opposed to a normal NTE5 - then the plot of BTOR history of this line thickens... put does not alter today's circumstances.
Regrettably all just darned frustrating for everyone.
Kevin

[#10]

Hey Townman

Quote from: Townman

If the BT faceplate Andy referred to is a SSFP (ADSL) - as opposed to a normal NTE5 - then the plot of BTOR history of this line thickens... put does not alter today's circumstances. Kevin

It could well have been a new DACS was applied to the line to accommodate another NLI in the area. This personally happened to me several weeks ago.
It would explain why the socket in the property is fairly new and why DACS is now suddenly showing.

[#11]

@Kevin @ Alex @Linn
Thank you all for the assistance and the large amount of info you've imparted in this thread. I've learnt a hell of a lot more about what's going on with my line today than I've been given over the whole of the last month speaking to CS! I feel a little more happy that someone is actually taking the issue seriously and hopefully will follow this through to resolution.
On the negative side, I must state again that if I had been given this info on any of the last 3 or 4 times I've called in (or even better, been called pro-actively by someone from Plusnet) then I wouldn't have felt so let down.
I'll look forward to future updates, and hopefully a broadband service soon(ish)...
Andy

[#12]

The conclusion that just because the NTE5A had a faceplate that said Openreach does NOT mean that there was any sort of broadband service previously on the line. Those versions of the NTE5A have been in service many years and it simply means that at some point, possibly as part of a fault repair the Master Socket was replaced. This also could have happened if the original Master socket was a hard-wired type and a previous EU wanted to change or add extensions and required the appropriate master socket.
Well done for the explanation Alex and the previous one from Linn.
Alex, it's now quite clear that the EU's frustration stems from the fact that no-one said at the outset that the delays were due to a DACS on the line (when it was put there is irrelevant). Whoever in provisioning that was dealing with this issue should have made it clear at the outset that there would be a delay and it was due to a DACS on the line. This dumbing down of information is not acceptable and is an issue that we've complained about before and will continue to do so very loudly if it continues.
Provisioning need to be told to provide the customer with as much information as possible. Far too many customers are getting the impression that delays are all Plusnet's fault because an adequate explanation is not being given at the outset. This is unnecessarily giving Plusnet a really bad name.
If the lack of explanation is down to the fact that Openretch did not tell provisioning the full detail, then this is an issue that needs to be taken up with Openreach and escalated to ensure it doesn't happen in future.
If this lack of detail is in fact some attempt to "protect" Plusnet's "supplier" (or protect themselves) who thinks who is kidding whom?
It is a well known fact (in the public domain) that Openreach are responsible for the provision and mainteance of lines etc that aren't Virgin Media Cable, and that all ISPs are therefore at their mercy. It really is about time that senior staff in BT Group got to grips with the maladministration and poor performance within Openreach and as far as Plusnet is concerned, the buck stops with the CEO.
What does it take to deal with this - does it require a bunch of us to turn up at the next BT Group AGM and demand some resignations at the top of BT?

[#13]

Hi Anotherone
Thanks for your feedback. It's true, we should have advise that there was a DACS on the line and it's not on that Andy wasn't provided with this information when he called us. This has been fed back to the agent's involved because this has clearly caused a great deal of dissatisfaction.
Normally when a DACS is on the line, it shows when doing a standard TAGS check. In this instance, it didn't show (no idea why, next thing to ask to OR) and Linn only found out when pushing for an explanation for the external work. I know how frustrating DACS can be, I've been on the other end of one!
I'll pass on your feedback regarding giving more detailed information about the provisioning delay. Sometimes giving "too much" information can overwhelm the customer which we clearly don't want however a more thorough clear explanation should be given regarding any delay.
Fingers crossed that this particular DACS issue is dealt with swiftly so Andy can get online asap.
Thanks!
Alex

[#14]

Well done Alex, keep up the good work   But I do hope somebody high up is getting to grips with Openreach.
As far as providing detail is concerned, I would always say provide it - but try and do so in not too over-technical a manner and remark that if the customer doesn't understand the information and would more of an explanation then to please ask. Otherwise you will just get on and progress the issue as quickly as possible. That should make it clear that they don't need to be bothered with the detail if they don't want to be.

[#15]

I've now lost the dial-tone on my land-line along with the ability the make or receive calls - I've logged a phone fault ticket.
I'm assuming this is a a result of the work being done to provide broadband, but I've had no contact to say I would be losing the phone line for any length of time. Would very much appreciate if a Plusnet staff member on here could check what's going on and let me know as soon as is feasible.
Thanks
Andy