Lack of support from Plusnet

[#1]

I never imagined I would feel it necessary to write in this Forum but my experience with Plusnet today was unbelievable.
Over the last 3 months I’ve had several periods when my line has started dropping every few minutes they last for about 3 days and then correct automatically. I have ruled out my equipment by changing everything including the faceplate of my master socket, tried 3 routers, 3 phones and several filters.
I was told by Plusnet that they would arrange a visit from a BT engineer as it’s obvious there is a problem as when the line is stable it runs at 6dB SRN Margin and IP Profile of 7000 kbps, the last time it was stable for a period of 30 days according to my router but Plusnet say that during this period it dropped once.
Today I had a phone call from Plusnet to tell me that BT had corrected the fault by switching on interleaving and raising my SRN Margin to 15dB, as interleaving has never been switched off and my SRN Margin had been on 15dB since Sunday when the line had stabilised again my only conclusion can be that BT are just not telling the truth, when I explained this to Plusnet I was told that if they sent out an engineer and there was no problem I would be charged for the call-out. I’ve now been told to leave the question open and see what happens.
What annoys me most with this situation that Plusnet know the history of this intermittent problem but in my opinion they are taking the side of BT when in my opinion the should be supporting me, instead I’m left with a line running at half it’s normal speed as my SRN Margin has not been reset.
I realise this problem is caused by BT but the lack of support from Plusnet amazes me, I can’t see why they can’t tell BT the history and insist an engineer examines the line from the pole to my flat as I’m sure this is where the fault lies, Jack.

[#2]

I've had the same in the past with a different ISP. I had an Open Reach engineer out to my house who admitted that he new little of broadband. He wouldn't even go to the exchange, just plugged his computer into my test socket, ran the same bt speed check trhat we all do, said it was fine and offski he went.
I did two things to get an engineer to check the exchange.
1. I reported a voice fault to 151 (don't mention broadband whatever you do)
2. I migrated out and then back in.
The outcome WAS an equipment fault at the exchange.
I'm not siding with anyone, but I know first hand the difficulty in dealing with Open Reach and BT Wholesale. What really give me, and I guess most people the hump, is that threat of a huge bill if an engineer cant find a fault. What do you do if its a faulty engineer. 

[#3]

@jac2285, sorry to hear you're having problems. I'm not 100% clear from your post what the main cause for your dissatisfaction is though? Is it the increased SNR/reduced throughput or the reluctance to get an engineer out to you?
We could request the SNR is lowered but if it's noise fluctuations on your line causing the disconnections then chances are it will just raise again. It's difficult to convince BT that there's a genuine issue with your line if it runs perfectly but just at a higher target SNR/reduced sync speed.
Regarding the engineer visit, we're only relaying the facts to you. If we did send an engineer out, they charged a callut fee and we hadn't pre-warned you about it then I can't imagine you'd be all too happy. I notice your SNR jumped from 6db-15db, I'm wondering if there'd be any value in requesting it's set to an intermediate value like 9db?

[#4]

Hi Jack,
I'm inclined to go along with what Bob's said really.
If BT have fixed your intermittency by increasing your target noise margin, then ultimately they have fixed your fault.  If you want BT to investigate why you're unable to hold onto a 6dB noise margin then I suspect you'll have a lot of difficulty as BT will not see that as a fault, but there's some slightly increased noise conditions on your telephone line.
You're more than welcome to source your own router which is compatible with the DMT tool and manually force the SNR to 6dB yourself, but it's very unlikely that we would be able to get BT to fix your line in the way you want them to.
Ultimately, we can get a BT engineer out, but a call out charge is probably quite likely.

[#5]

Quote from: jac2285

Over the last 3 months I’ve had several periods when my line has started dropping every few minutes they last for about 3 days and then correct automatically.

Do the periods when it disconnects correspond to periods of wet or windy weather?
When it is bad is there any noise on the line when you use the phone? If you dial 17070 and take the quite line test (option 2) you should hear nothing. If there is noise on the line you should report this as a normal voice line fault (and don't mention ADSL).

[#6]

Hi Bob, Thanks for your interest.  My basic complaint is that I know and  Plusnet know  that there is an intermittent fault on my line, when it occurs it doesn't matter what the SNR is the line drops continually, this will last for around 2-3 days and go back to normal. Normally with my SNR Margin set to 6dB my line is very stable and never drops, I have done everything possible to find a solution at my end but nothing I have tried works.
BTs comment that on Monday they increased the SNR Margin to 15 dB and added interleaving is laughable, my SNR Margin jumped to 15 on Saturday and interleaving has been on from when I first had Broadband, what annoys me is that Plusnet just accept this statement although they know it's untrue. The second point is you mention that you can request that my SNR Margin be reset but when I raise a question about getting it reset I'm told you don't have the facility to do this and I have to get stroppy before it happens. You suggest setting it at 9dB but as mentioned earlier at 6dB it is normally stable. In my telephone conversation with your agent I was again told that I would have to wait for it to reset automatically (which it has never done in the past). If the disruption ended when the line stabilised It would not be so bad but the hassle every time to get my SNR reset is driving me crazy
This then are my reasons for being upset with Plusnet, if you have any comments please make them, regards, Jack.
Hi James, I think this answers you as well, regards, Jack.

[#7]

Hi Jack,
It's possible that your interleaving was set to "auto" previously, whereas it's now been changed to "on" which would probably give a greater interleaving depth than you had before.
Ultimately, if your connection is still dropping after your update on Monday, let us know!  We'll get back in touch with BT and get them to fix your fault.  If they ask us to retest, that's all we can do until we can prove that their changes have made no difference.
I promiose we're on the same side as you

[#8]

Hi James, The problem is my line hasn't dropped since Sunday evening as usual the problem lasted  for around 48 hrs. during this time it was dropping every few minutes which is why my SRN Margin rise so quickly (wish it would drop as quickly!). My belief is that the problem is somewhere between the top of the pole and my flat, the problem is that after I report the problem to you and you contact BT  and they respond it will have corrected itself and left me with a SRN Margin of 15dB which I then have to hassle Plusnet to get reset, it is not a gentle increase my SRN Margin will rise from 6 to 15 in 10 minutes and then stay there until you request a reset from BT, it does not reset automatically!, regards, Jack.
Just to clarify my router has always shown interleaving to be on not auto. Jack.

[#9]

Quote from: jac2285

The problem is my line hasn't dropped since Sunday evening

What was the weather like Saturday/Sunday morning?

Quote from: jelv

Do the periods when it disconnects correspond to periods of wet or windy weather?

You didn't answer this. If you can identify the pattern as to why it goes bad you will be a huge leap forward to getting it fixed.
That you have said the line comes from a pole makes it being weather related a distinct possibility.

[#10]

From my experience it will only drop automatically if there are low error rates on the line. This doesn't necessarily mean frequent resync's
With your router is it possible to monitor the noise margin and error rates over time.

[#11]

Hi Jelv, My apologies for not replying earlier thr weather the last two weekends when I've had this problem has been OK although on both occasions there has been some rain but not a lot. The reason I mentioned the pole is that 5-6 years ago pre B/B a had a fault on my phone line and they had to get a cherrypicker to reach the top of the building where the fault was, as the wiring through the building is yonks old and even at that time the engineers couldn't find how it came to my flat from the top of the building 3 floors below, all I know is it goes through the flat next door and then disappears.
Thanks for your interest, regards, Jack.

[#12]

Hi Old Jim, yes I have a Voyager 2110 which registers errors and SNR but umtil the line starts to drop it shows very few errors, regards, Jack.

[#13]

If you can install RouterStats this will let you graph the errors over time and may give a better picture.
However going back to your original complaint I have found that the automatic systems don't seem happy to just increase the default noise margin by 3dB or 6dB but bounce it straight up to 15dB.
Have you tried asking Plusnet to drop the default noise margin to 12dB and if that holds with no problems then try 9dB.
Alternatively take the more expensive route (as I did) buy a new router such as the Netgear DG834G v4 which supports the use of DMT and Routerstats to drop the default noise margin.
With this you can play about with the noise margin yourself to the extent that you can drop the default margin to 9dB from a BT set 15dB

[#14]

Hi Old Jim, First sorry for the delay in replying, the SRN Margin did increase in 3dB steps as I was watching very closely to see what was happening, my line normally at 6dB will run for weeks at a time without dropping as both Plusnet and BT know it is only when this problem arises that it goes haywire for 2-3 days at a time, what annoys me is the time it takes to get my SNR Margin reset, at the moment my line has been stable since Sunday evening and still my SNR Margin is at 15dB. As both Plusnet and BT can see this why can't it be reset?, do they think that at less than 1K. from the exchange an IP Profile of 4000kbps is normal? Why won't Plusnet challenge BT when they make false statements about adjusting my SRN Margin and applying interleaving? these are the thing that annoy me, regards, Jack.

[#15]

Totally agree with you jac2285. You clearly have some sort of intermittent problem, which would seem to have a pattern, but one which can't be defined as yet. As you say

Quote

........ do they think that at less than 1K. from the exchange an IP Profile of 4000kbps is normal? Why won't Plusnet challenge BT.........

well of course it isn't normal, or acceptable.
What I also find totally galling is that in this situation

Quote

.................. that I know and  Plusnet know  that there is an intermittent fault on my line, when it occurs it doesn't matter what the SNR is the line drops continually, this will last for around 2-3 days and go back to normal. Normally with my SNR Margin set to 6dB my line is very stable and never drops, I have done everything possible to find a solution at my end but nothing I have tried works.

that BT or PlusNet think setting a 15dB target for an intermittent fault is an acceptable solution. It is NOT, especially when you have tried 3 different routers, filters, phones and etc.
There should be no argument about resetting  the SNRM target, certainly to 9dB if not 6dB.
If it is not an intermittent line fault somewhere it is intermittent REIN, but not so random, but what's the cause, is there any evidence to point one in a particular direction, and how long has this been an open fault (as opposed to being a problem).
Whilst there MAY be a case from the BT side that there is not YET sufficient evidence to justify any further action, there is clearly an area of suspicion

Quote

.................. that 5-6 years ago pre B/B a had a fault on my phone line and they had to get a cherrypicker to reach the top of the building where the fault was, as the wiring through the building is yonks old and even at that time the engineers couldn't find how it came to my flat from the top of the building 3 floors below, all I know is it goes through the flat next door and then disappears.

Apart from using RouterStats or whatever to graph the errors with time, I'd be asking what went on in the flat next door or anywhere on route from there to the top of the building, that doesn't go on all the time and that may be a source of electrical interference or physical disturbance of the line. Is the standard of cable to spec.CW1308? etc. Who has the 'legal' responsibilty for the cable from the top of the building to each flat?
In the interim, the target SNRM should reset without delay, IMVHO.