Lack of support from Plusnet

[#1]

If you increase the noise margin sufficiently you can "fix" virtually any problem.
Might be a mite bit slow, though.

[#2]

'@anotherone, thanks for your reply, the cabling through the property is the responsability of BT, if it wasn't I would get it rewired myself, what I find annoying is that Plusnet seem unwilling to question any decision by BT, they stated that they increased the SRN Margin and swiched on interleaving on Monday, the SRN Margin had risen to 15dB on Saturday and interleaving has never been off since I had Broadband installed.
Today I got an answer to my ongoing questiom asking what I was unhappy about as my line and speed are stable!!, unfortunately there are no cable providers in my area and I can't see any sense in going to another ISP although I've heard good reports about UK Online who I believe give you the option to set your own SRN Margin, I really feel that Plusnet should be doing more on this case,Jack.

[#3]

This is the latest answer to my question,

Dear Mr Charles,
Before we action this request, please reply with the following comments displayed below
+++
I request to have my SNR lowered to 6dB. However, should the SNR increase after this point due to line conditions, I accept that I will not be able to request this again.
+++
Kind regards
My response will I'm sure not meet with thier approval so I think it's time to look else.
How they can ask me to agree to accept responsability for a know fault line is beyond belief, I have tried every way I can to assist in the tracing of this fault and I get told it's my responsability.
I have already spoken to another Provider who have their own equipment in the exchange and although more expensive they sound a lot more willing to assist in sorting out this problem, Jack.

[#4]

Would someone with a superior knowledge of ADSL to me please look at these Stats from my router and give an opinionplease,
Line Mode G.DMT  Line State Show Time 
Latency Type Interleave  Line Up Time 06:15:03:11 
Line Coding Trellis On  Line Up Count 1 
 
Statistics Downstream Upstream 
Line Rate 5088 Kbps 448 Kbps 
Noise Margin 14.8 dB 21.0 dB 
Line Attenuation 36.0 dB 19.5 dB 
Output Power 19.8 dBm 12.1 dBm 
K (number of bytes in DMT frame) 160 15 
R (number of check bytes in RS code word) 12 4 
S (RS code word size in DMT frame) 1 4 
D (interleaver depth) 32 8 
Super Frames 33681987  33681985 
Super Frame Errors 80  6 
RS Words 2290375158  572593745 
RS Correctable Errors 18700  38 
RS Uncorrectable Errors 1081  0 
HEC Errors 71  0 
OCD Errors 0  0 
LCD Errors 0  0 
ES Errors 0  0 
 
Thanks in anticipation, Jack.
 

[#5]

I can't claim to have superior knowledge to you, 
but since you have a very stable line (with very few errors) on a 15dB noise margin,
Why not ask for an intermediate reduction to 9dB - which should give you a considerable increase in sync speed.
After several days your BRAS profile will increase to suit.
You can always ask for a 6dB margin at a later date...
Is your modem supported by DMT - it's a tool whereby you can make modest increases/decreases on your own noise margin.

[#6]

@ axisofevil , believe me any knowledge is superior to none!
This is an ongoing dispute with Plusnet over an intermittent fault on my line and I got so annoyed with the replies to my ticket that I'm in the proccessof looking for a LLU Provider who at least will reset my SNR Margin without a need to go through BT, I expected Plusnet to support me but they are now saying I must put in writing that if rhey request a reset from BT it will not happen again! as my line starts to drop every few minutes from time to time and this lasts for about 48-72 hours and then rights itself I refuse to do this as the next time it happens I will have no comeback. Since I refused their request I've had no word from them and am now in limbo. Looking through the forums I've noticed several similar cases and my impression now is that BTs answer to the problem is just to raise the SRN of anyone who has a connection problem.
Thanks for your interest, Jack.

[#7]

If the Target SNR is reduced to 6dB, then you sync during daytime hours I think there is a risk that error rates could increase with the possibility of disconnection at night, and the DLM might increase the target noise margin yet again. Combine this with the periodic instability and the Target SNR will soon be back to the current level. And next time BT will be even more reluctant to make any changes.
I know it's not what you are seeking but my suggestion is to request a Target SNR of 9dB, sync at that during the day and record the sync/SNR history if you can (e.g. using DMT). When you get the instability can you live with it for a few days to get a record that the behaviour comes out normal again after the instability goes away? It will be unfortunate if the DLM reacts by putting up your SNR during this period, but that could happen.
If you can acquire a graphical history you are in a much better position for discussing the behaviour than just relying on memory. At the moment a confrontational situation seems to have developed between you and Plusnet. They want to retain you as a customer and you need their willing help to resolve the problem. I hope my suggestion will be seen as a compromise which both sides can work with to move forward with this problem.
David

[#8]

Hi Jack,
I'm sorry this is a long response. but bear with it.
Firstly, those stats - Very Good - you've been connected for 6days 15hrs, nice and stable, very low error rate.
Next, spraxyt has given you an excellent synopsis of a way forward.
Before suggesting a response to CSC,  I think it would be a good idea to recap and make sure all the basics have been covered. I know you've tried different routers, filters, etc but if we are going to try and narrow down the cause of this problem, it would be wise to double check everything, so if you could be patient enough to answer the following -
Do you have any fixed extension wiring & sockets? If so, are they connected to the faceplate, and are they dead when the faceplate is removed?
If you have extension wiring, is the bell wire on terminal 3 disconnected at the faceplate, alternatively does the face plate say OpenReach on the front or do you have an i-plate or another brand of faceplate?
Is anything else plugged into the master socket? Do you have any Sky or similar boxes? If so where are they connected and are they connected via filters?
Has any equipment, telephony, electrical or otherwise been changed or added at around the time that this problem started?
When you tried an alternative router, was it connected via a different filter to the Test socket behind the faceplate and how long did you have it connected for, and is this an alternative router that you are currently using?
You say that the BT cable goes via the flat next door and then to the top of the building - where the cable is visible, have you seen it? is it intact, does it have any joints or connectors?
Does anything go on in your flat or the flat next door, or in any other flat/part of the building along the cable route when the problem occurs which does not go on at other times?
IF the answers to all the above are satisfactory - I think my reply to the ticket would be something along these lines -
"Dear CSC person, my line and speed might appear stable. but 4 or 5 days without a loss of sync does not indicate a stable line that has an INTERMITTENT problem. Until about 3 months ago my line was stable with a target SNRM of 6db and a profile of 7M until this INTERMITTENT problem occurred. Since then, there has been one period of 30 days with a target SNRM of 6db when the line appeared stable. When the INTERMITTENT problem occurs, it can last 2 or 3 days and then disappear. The problem can re-occur unpredictably.The simple fact that BT cannot be made to comprehend this is beginning to leave me extremely dis-satisfied with PlusNet's service to the point that I am even considering the possibility of another supplier.
I do NOT accept any statement that will restrict my ability to obtain a satisfactory service when an INTERMITTENT problem is present. Having carried out ALL the recommended tests and checks at my end - different routers, filters etc connected to the test socket, the suggestion that a profile of 4M is acceptable when I am 1km from the exchange is just not on.
I have discussed this problem on your forums,and it has been suggested that a compromise 9dB Target SNRM be requested, whilst I continue to attempt to collect some further data that will enable PN/BT to attempt to locate the INTERMITTENT fault."
RouterStats (and DMT) have been suggested to obtain a graphical history of your problem. Have you looked at / would you be comfortable with trying to use either?
Hope this all helps to get you closer to a resolution.
Regards,
Chris.

[#9]

@Spraxyt
@Anotherone
First thank you both for your replies and suggestions'
I'm afraid I can't give any pointers about the wiring entering the building as a cherrypicker is needed to reach it.
I'm sure nothing in the building is causing the problem.
I have no extentions at all, the only things connected to the Master socket is my router and my telephone, the router is next to the socket so no long cabling is required. I don't have a modern master socket, it is just a normal socket, I had the front plate replaced by a very competent ex BT engineer who left BT because he didn't like the way they were going, he uses only genuine BT equipment.
I changed the router when the problem was happening and it made no difference, the connection just continued to drop every few minutes, this also applies to the filters of which I tried a variety of types all to no avail. The telephone used to sit next to the router so I used an extention to move it away but it makes no difference in fact I disconnected it completely and the line still dropped. Al of these things I've tried several times and they have made no difference.
I'm at the moment running Routerstats(Lite) which I leave running as long as the computer is on which is normally from about 8am to around 1am, and I'm keeping a log of the results, I really can't think of anything else I can try.
I think that one problem with the ticket system is that every time you get a response it's from a different person, since last Sunday I've had 9 different people answer my questions and to be honest I don't think they bother reading the previous replies a lot of the time and you continually get asked the same things and to do the same tests, which can get very annoying.
My main bone of contention is that the line dropping lasts 2-3 days but it takes another 7-10 days to get the SRN Margin reset which in my mind Plusnet should realise is my priority and not every time tell me I will have to wait for it to happen automatically(which never happens) at which time I lose my temper and lay the law down. I did feel that to be asked to state that I wouldn't ask again was beyond the pale and to me was treating me with contempt and suggesting in some way I was responsible for the problem. The last time it happened it was reset to 9dB and I was quite happy with this and after a while asked foe it to be reset to 6dB and they complied without a question as the line had been rock solid, and of course I would accept this again if offered.
I've been with Plusnet for about 4 years now, except for a blip over the email fracas when I left for 2 months and have been happy with the service normally, it is only when a problem is not simply rectified and requires more research I find the fall behind and I feel this is because it goes from hand to hand and nobody takes responsibility for it.
Sorry it's a long post but I wanted to put my case properly, regards, Jack.

[#10]

Hi Jack - I'm sure you've read some of my tales of woe in this rant: http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,72776.0.html - I know it's a different problem, but the experiences you've been having with PN support staff are disappointingly familiar!

Quote from: jac2285

I think that one problem with the ticket system is that every time you get a response it's from a different person, since last Sunday I've had 9 different people answer my questions and to be honest I don't think they bother reading the previous replies a lot of the time and you continually get asked the same things and to do the same tests, which can get very annoying.

I've had a very similar experience but I've lost count of the number of times we've gone around in circles....

Quote from: jac2285

I've been with Plusnet for about 4 years now, except for a blip over the email fracas when I left for 2 months and have been happy with the service normally, it is only when a problem is not simply rectified and requires more research I find the fall behind and I feel this is because it goes from hand to hand and nobody takes responsibility for it.

And that's precisely the issue, in my opinion - no-one at PlusNet takes responsibility for long-running problems and this is one reason why they take so long to resolve! If PN really want to learn from their mistakes and improve the service to their customers then assigning an owner to complex problems (e.g. something that can't be fixed after three attempts, say) should reduce the overall time taken to find a solution, and reduce the aggravation experienced by us, their long-suffering customers!
The other significant problem that PN support staff (barring a very few notable exceptions) have, in my opinion, is that they seem unable to communicate with BT effectively i.e. problem descriptions don't seem to be passed on properly (e.g. the BT engineers have frequently said they don't know why they've been requested as PN have provided scant information about the problem). And PN support staff have said that BT haven't passed any test details back when some BT engineers have stated that they did send XML documents with the tests back to the ISP. To me, this just smacks of a very large organisation (and, as we know, PN is a small part of the BT empire) that is at war with itself i.e. it's always some other department's fault...
Would anyone at PN like to comment?
In the meantime, Jack, you might want to try posting photos of the various phone line connections (as I did, somewhat belatedly, to help illustrate my line problems). I know that you've already said that some are pretty inaccessible, but anything you can post may help others to make further constructive suggestions. Good luck!

[#11]

my experience of late hasnt been that bad, maybe because most were simple, but the one with changing to the BBYW1 offer did seem to have a regular person, but other people did cut in and seem to confuse the matter.  however I did have a bad one over a year ago where all I seemed to be saying on my replies was cant you lot read. 
So perhaps catwaeazle thoughts should be seriously looked at

[#12]

@ catweazle,  Thanks for your interest, I've read your post and agree with what you say about the way CS appears to underperform with ongoing problems, I think this is something Plusnet have to look at seriously, Another point is that they take everything that BT say as Gospel, in my case they said they had corrected the fault by increasing the SRN Margin to 15dB and switching on interleaving although the SRN was at 15dB before it was even reported to Plusnet and interleaving has beeb on my line since Broadband was installed 4 years ago. Regarding my line wiring the cable enters my flat through the wall from the next door flat and how it gets there I have no idea1, I only know that it comes from a pole outside to the top of the building, as it comprises 8 flats and all have telephones to identify the cable, even with a cherrypicker would be impossible, Once again thanks for your input

[#13]

Jack.
I've replied to your ticket at some length & have raised a request to lower your target noise margin.
I'll reply to the other comments regarding Plusnet vs BT (which I don't agree with!) after I've got some more coffee!

[#14]

Ok.
First things first.  We are part of BT Retail and not part of Openreach or Wholesale.  There is a difference
Also, this means that due to equivalence legislation, BT are not allowed to give us any preferential treatment over other ISPs - that's part of the reason why Openreach was implemented.
Moving onto information given by us to BT and engineers not getting relavant information, you need first to understand a bit about the system that we use to raise faults.  It's pretty rubbish!  e.Co, which we use to place orders and raise faults only has a minimal area in which you can use to add further information, so it's often difficult to portray the full picture of what's actually going on.  We do also call BT and ask them to add further notes to problems, but this also relies on BTs diagnostics teams reading the information that's passed to them and also the relavant information getting passed through to the engineers, which doesn't always happen.
Am I saying that we're without fault? Of course I'm not.  There's always areas in which we can improve and will always try to do so.  There are instances where we are at fault, but in Jack's case, I don't think that we are.  With the implementation of the IPStream Max product and DLM - it's designed to increase target noise margins when periods of instability occur.  BT are often extremely unwilling (I often have to escalate to Team Leader level and even then it's not always a given) to perform manual target noise profile changes and they will often tell us that they won't do it a second time.

[#15]

Quote

you need first to understand a bit about the system that we use to raise faults.  It's pretty rubbish!  e.Co

It should perhaps be pointed out that e.CO is the system BT require faults to be raised with and is not a PN system (before someone suggests PN "get a better system").
See here.