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Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

hadden
Grafter
Posts: 486
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Registered: ‎27-07-2007

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

Last night (about 10pm) I noticed that my PN profile was stated as 3000 again. However MyBroadband Speed tests came back as 1663, 1987 and 1348, which i suppose I could put down to other traffic load.
This morning the PN displayed profile was still 3000 and the BT displayed profile 3000, however a speed test was only 2281 kbps, ie consistent with a 2500 profile.
I then reset the router. 1st sync was 2880 kbps with SNR 15.1 dB. I manually reduced the SNR and got 3776 kbps with SNR 10.6.
A speed test then reported 2746 kbps, ie consistent with a 3000 kbps profile.
As this is my third consecutive daily reset, I am inclined to leave things alone to see what happens. However when I left things alone last week, after almost exactly 72 hours, I was rewarded with my default target SNR rising from 12dB to 15dB.
For info, my line attenuation is 51dB and I am 2.54km from the exchange, in a straight line. When my target SNR is 6dB I usually sync around 4600-4700 kbps and can get a 4000 profile, but I keep the target SNR a little higher to give more assured overnight stability.
All things considered, my current ADSL performance is probably not too bad. Especially relative to those situations when a customer download  speed drops to 750 kbps or lower.
However the case continues to grow against the reliability of technical information being reported.
orbrey
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Posts: 10,540
Registered: ‎18-07-2007

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

Hi JohnJ,
I can see you've raised a ticket to have the SNR reset, I must admit I have concerns over this given the fluctuating SNR and line rates you've advised of above. If we do get the SNR reset it's likely that it'll update again very shortly after going through the process, and we won't be able to reset it again for some time unfortunately. If you'd still like to go ahead with it no worries, just wanted to voice my concerns.
hadden
Grafter
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Registered: ‎27-07-2007

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

Hi Matt
Thanks for your concerns.
Taking them into account, I also would like the impending SNR reset request to have the best chance of success. So if you can advise the best scenario that results in a successful SNR reset, I would be happy to fit in with that. For example, should I avoid further router resets, etc?
If I could have a better idea about when the target SNR was going to be reduced and if I should take any particular action or avoid any particular action, it would be helpful.
The fluctuation of the resync speeds in the above posts are only due to me manually setting the target SNR between resyncs rather than a varying quality of the connection. These resync speeds are about what I would expect for my line at the corresponding SNR figures, based upon close observation over the last year.
I think that the current condition of my connection is only due to whatever systems are intended to detect bad connections, rather than any real world fault with my line.
If there is any influence possible over when it might take place, I would request that it didn't take place today. This is because I recall the first time my target SNR reduced to 6dB. I had carried out a manual router reset earlier in the day (for router configuration purposes). Then, later that day, my target SNR was automatically reduced to 6dB. This triggered another router reset... the "systems" seemed to count that as a second reset and therefore a fault condition and promptly shoved my SNR back up again and the profile way down!
orbrey
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Posts: 10,540
Registered: ‎18-07-2007

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

Well, it'll happen within 24 hours of us placing the order, generally early in the morning. I suspect unless you (or I) update the ticket it'll get placed this afternoon, happen overnight and be done by tomorrow morning.
If it involves a complete reset of the line including the 10 day training period it may well help to settle things so I agree in that it is worth trying, for sure. Just let us know if you'd like to hold off for a while.
I suspect that once the reset is done continuing to resync the line in the mornings - at least during the training period - will help, as long as it's not happening too often.
Hope that helps,
hadden
Grafter
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Registered: ‎27-07-2007

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

Thanks for your advice.
Based upon that and my previous experience, I've updated the ticket to request a 24 hour delay on the order, just to make sure an overnight event is more than 24 hours clear of my last router reset.
If I'm too late to delay things, then I'm sure it will all work out in the end.
jelv
Seasoned Hero
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Registered: ‎10-04-2007

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

Matt, Has resetting the SNRM target always implied a new 10 day training period or is that an extra option you have to request? If it is an extra option, is it something that can be requested separately? (I'm wondering if it would be a quicker option when someone has replaced duff hardware or wiring and is then waiting for the IP Profile to return to something sensible)
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£14.40/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
orbrey
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Posts: 10,540
Registered: ‎18-07-2007

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

Hi jelv,
Basically we don't know, it depends on a few things - the line, what's happened to cause the need for an SNR change (recently resolved fault, new hardware etc), even which agent picks up the query. Sometimes the whole thing will be reset, which leads to the training period, and sometimes the SNR is just altered manually. I'll see if there is any way we can make the request that does lead to the training period for sure, that would indeed be very handy.
hadden
Grafter
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Registered: ‎27-07-2007

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

Nothing happened last night, however I got a message from CS at 9:33 this morning:
[quote=Plusnet Customer Support]We've requested a reset of your SNR, this will put your line back into the initial 10 day training period from today. This will help to find the best settings for your line.
So, I thought... maybe tonight...
However at the back of 11am I noticed that my SNR had dropped very low. On checking I could see that something had happened at 9:50. SNR had dropped from 9.4 to 1.5dB and the sync speed had risen from 3776 to 5472. I also noticed that my line attenuation had dropped from 51dB to 50 dB.
Much as I'd have liked to keep the high sync speed, that low SNR was probably going to bite me come evening, so I proceeded with the planned router reset.
The router resynced at 4416 kbps with SNR  6.0dB, so the intended action appears to have hit the target (well done Plusnet guys!). The attenuation returned to the normal 51dB. So, at the moment everything is almost back to the way it was before it all went south.
I'm not sure that a "training period" is involved, as the SNR went right down to 6.0dB with no steps.
I have a wee concern as it was over 80 minutes between the SNR reset event and my router reset and I hope that doesn't count as an unstable connection.
My other concern is that an SNR so close to 6.0 was giving me problems a few months ago, and I would like to manually tweak it up a little. However, I don't want to rock the boat, so will not be doing any tweaking unless I have to for a few days.
My profile at BT is currently 4500 because of the initial sync at 5472, but no doubt that will drop to 4000 as per the "stable" sync speed, then we can see how quickly the Plusnet system catches up.
orbrey
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Plusnet Alumni (retired)
Posts: 10,540
Registered: ‎18-07-2007

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

Well I've upped your profile on our side to 4500 to match, that way you'll be able to enjoy it for as long as you've got it. Hopefully that'll be for some time.
hadden
Grafter
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Registered: ‎27-07-2007

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

Thanks Matt
I disconnected and reconnected to use the new profile.
However, it looks like the BT profile has gone to 3500 already Sad as MyBroadbandSpeed reports my download speed as 3398 kbps.
Of course I should have expected that and not 4000 as I said in my earlier posting (I should have checked the table).
Oh well... nearly...
Thanks for the extra effort!
Anotherone
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Registered: ‎31-08-2007

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

@JohnJ
Hi John,
reading through your previous posts, apart from the difficulties of a longer line, I tend to suspect that part of the problem is that you haven't realised how the BT exchange DLM works when things are not perfect.
If you have a dropped connection from time to time and if the error rate is a bit on the high side, then it only takes a few modem/router reboots/resyncs for DLM to say - ah problem with this line, up the Target SNRM to try and stabilise it. And of course if disconnects continue - even if it's reboots, it will up it again and pretty rapidly. The exchange cannot tell the difference between a dropped connection and a reboot you've instigated.
The way to try and get a stable connection is to go for the lowest sync in the band for the profile you know you can hang onto for most of the time. This is of course on the assumption that you do not have any line or other faults, your internal wiring is optimised, bell wire issue dealt with, etc.
Eg. if you believe you can hang onto a 4000 profile, then the sync speed to aim at is 4544 or just above, not as high as 5088 or near.
The trick is to discover what Target SNRM you need to achieve that, & worse it will vary depending on what the background noise levels are like (it's still better to sync in the day by the way) - also bearing in mind the limitations of DMT Target setting , & I believe a similar approach with Netgears with their own firmware or with DGTeam.
The technique I use with DMT after a powerdown is to have the line unplugged, powerup the modem/router, set the Target, press the button then plug the line in - works a treat as long as you get the Target right! The other part of this trick is to err on the cautious side so the sync might end up low rather than high. Now that might sound a bit contrary to what one wants, but the reason is as long as the low sync is not maintained for more than  supposedly 75 minutes (but I never allow it to go more than a few minutes) or you get a low sync more than twice in that same interval it won't affect the profile. So if it syncs too low, adjust the target and reboot. If you have to do it a second time then you got to be sure to try and go a bit high or risk losing the profile. If you unfortunately go too high, you risk leaving it when things get noisy and get a drop, or turn off and try again tomorrow so to speak. If you go too high in the first place and have to try and bring it down there is a danger the DLM will think you have a line problem. I either risk leaving it and try again the next day if it holds, or switch off before then and try again later.
The one rule I always say for all this and if you are testing and have to swap things about is ALWAYS powerdown the modem/router and wait several minutes before unplugging the line, filter or master - anything that disconnects it from the line. That way, DLM hopefully sees the powerdown and doesn''t think you have a line drop problem, and don't do it more than 5 times in an hour, then leave it for the rest of the day (gives a margin of safety - touch wood). The 2nd rule is to do this when noise levels are stable, which for most people will be during the day, and at this time of year, well after sunrise & well before sunset (at least 1&1/2hrs).
Note that at this time of year noise conditions can be more unstable during the day. If you run a program like RouterStats, you can see what your Noise Margins (& hence noise levels) are doing.
I have to say that although these techniques work nearly all the time I have had the odd fail, you just have to live with it. Once you get the sync speed you want, leave it alone, do not resync or switch off, especially if you are in a training period. If DLM drops the sync in a training period, then try to get back to the optimum sync, but do not try it more than twice (not 5 times) in a day. Then leave it alone.
Just a few points on things said above, PN should be able to tell you whether you line is in a new training period or not. You cannot conclude that a training period is not involved just because the SNRM went straight down to 6dB no steps, that's precisely what it should do when manually set and also if a new training period is instigated -  training starts with a 6dB Target.
Also, don't reboot unnecessarily, to gateway hop for example you only need drop the ppp session which is usually done by using the Connect/Disconnect button in the modem/router interface BUT there are some modem/routers where this still causes a resync, so be careful. Likewise profile changes should not need a reboot or a drop of ppp session, but if for some reason it doesn't get picked up then leave it until noise conditions are stable if a reboot is involved.
hadden
Grafter
Posts: 486
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Registered: ‎27-07-2007

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

Thanks for the wisdom.
Yes, as you say, it is training...
...when the SNR started to drop after dark, the confirmation showed up...
At 17:20 the SNR was pulled back up from 4.4dB to 6.0dB and the sync dropped to 3744 kbps accordingly.
Anotherone
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Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

That would happen anyway, if the margin got too low, the errors will get too high and sync will be lost, and will be resynced with a 6dB Target. It doesn't prove it's a new training period.
(I have a sneaky feeling that PN have got a new tool that BTw have made available to them, whether they know how to drive it properly yet or not remains to be seen!).
Have you got RouterStats, try RouterStats Lite if you haven't, easy to set up if your router is on the list, otherwise follow the instructions. It's right towards the bottom of the page on the link, go for the Windows self installer version - makes it very easy to start.
What I'd be inclined to do is, when your SNRM seems fairly stable in the morning, around mid-morning say, switch off for 15mins and then aim for a Target SNRM of around 7.5dB (that's my best guess - you may have a better one) which hopefully will be aiming for a sync of 4000 or a fraction over. You don't want to go much higher, otherwise you will more than likely drop sync tomorrow evening again.
hadden
Grafter
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Registered: ‎27-07-2007

Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

@Anotherone
I've actually been using RouterStats with my (DG834G v4) over the past year and it has been useful in allowing me to gather the above stats, manually set the target SNR and detect alarm events. I've also got lots of logged data.
Before the current issue, I found that my SNR would vary between 3-ish and 5-ish over 24 hours without any jumps, so this afternoon's SNR jump back to 6.0dB from 4.4dB, kind of suggested to me that things weren't quite back to normal (see attached example from 9 November for the normal daily variance).
With all due respect, I still suspect that training might be happening. If that were the case, how do you think the "system" might react to me setting a higher SNR (ie 7-ish)? As long as it didn't trigger the system to get too nervous, I'm tempted.
Your suggested target SNR and sync are what I had been aiming for myself, though not as precisely, when things were stable before. As you mentioned in your previous message, I found setting the target SNR tricky such that I usually had to enter a lower 'desired' Noise Margin into RouterStats to get a target SNR somewhere around 7 and a sync just over 4000. Though I found that the SNR would settle after 24 hours down to the figures in the attached graph.
When things are stable, I find that the best RouterStats alarm settings for me is to detect if the SNR goes above 7 dB or below 4064 kbps.
Thanks again for your previous comments. I had already noted (and applied :)) a few from your postings in other topics, but it's nice to see them gathered together in a way that ties them together.
Anotherone
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Re: Profile resetting is just an urban myth!

Hi John,
you're forgetting you lost sync when it went from 4.4 to 6db. That will always be the case whenever you lose sync, it will always "jump" or come back at the set Target SNRM. If your target had been 9 then it would have "jumped" to 9 when you lost sync. If you manually change the target and that target setting remains in the modem/router (as it definitely does with DGTeam firmware) then if you lost sync it would "jump" to that value.
Once you have synced with the exchange at the Target SNRM, the margin will then vary as the noise conditions vary, there won't be any jumps unless you lose sync or there is some constant interference suddenly.
Unless you had RouterStats running at the time sync was lost, it's impossible to know exactly what happened, why it should have lost sync apparently with noise at 4.4 is anyone's guess, but training is unlikely to be the cause.
With regard to this "training" - there is no outward evidence at the moment that this is happening. Although Matt said it was, he was unable to fully answer Jelv's question, so this throws some doubt on the matter.
As far a setting another Target (7-ish) if it is training, well I can't be certain it won't misbehave but it shouldn't. I wouldn't have thought there was anything to lose. It's either sit it out with a poorer performance for the next 10 days, or do a standard resync in the daytime, probably lose sync in the evening, and eventually DLM will up the Target to 9, or otherwise give a new Target a go.