Referral discount calculation changed yet again!

[#1]

Ah, I can see the problem of having moved packages being 'fun' 

[#2]

I'm watching my "missing one" closely 

[#3]

Just spotted this topic and had been wondering about it:

Quote

Activation Date  Billing Date  Last Token  Value  Total Tokens  Total Credit  Status 20/11/10            29/11/13      N/A                £0.00  30                    £15.00          active 20/11/10            29/11/13      29/10/13      £0.50  35                    £17.50          active

Does this mean I'm affected?
It's not a major issue; but would be nice to have it resolved if so.

[#4]

Yes, you're affected. Anything with a token value of £0.00 must be affected. You seem to have had 30 correct credits from that referral though, have they recently ( about 6 months ago ) changed package ?

[#5]

Hi geofftswin,
Would you mind PMing me the username of the account that is from?
The zero token count on that is higher others I've seen and just want to take a closer look to check there isn't anything that will be missed by the fix.

[#6]

Scott,
For clarity, can you please confirm that the fixes you are processing will address those situations where the referral credits add up to (or vary by) values which are not multiples of 25p (that being the smallest token value or multiple there of) as noted at the start of this thread?  You might recall my reference to an inspection of my total referral value by a CS agent resulting in being advised that the value of my referrals is £6.19 (IIRC) which just did not make sense.  Also for many months, my reported referral value appeared to be 'capped' at my subscription value.
I think it would provide reassurance if the scenarios address by the programme of fixes in hand could be shared with users.  Is that possible please?
Thanks,
Kevin

[#7]

Hi Kevin,
Sorry I missed when you first asked about those.
I've just had a look through your account for those two issues. Odd referral values and the 'cap' at your subscription value. Good news is, after looking at your account it doesn't seem to be an actual problem and they are actually related.
What happens when your referrals exceed your subscription value is a partial token redemption is done (For you, you can see such an example on invoice 39429940). These odd values are then tracked on the referral system.
If the total amount of these odd values hits £5 the system will pay this back to you as cold hard cash. If not, it carries the odd values over to your next bill. If your referrals then exceed your next bill again it will keep carrying over until it hits £5 or there is a bill where your referrals don't exceed your subscription value.
The only oddity is it seems to add the partial tokens onto another token giving you weird values like 79p for a token instead of saying it's a partial token. It also only seems to add the partial on to a 'full' token from the same referrer the partial was created from, and it doesn't add all of these on to 1 full token and spreads them out. I suspect the reason it is done this way is so you don't end up with one monster token or tons and tons of tokens for 1p each. Which in turn makes it look like an ongoing problem.
Hopefully that clears those scenarios up for you ?
If anyone has any similar issues with odd values I can have a quick check over your account and doubley confirm that is the situation and that there isn't something else at play.
The only problem with referrals at the moment that is being addressed is with the zero value tokens as there aren't any other problems open related to tokens.

[#8]

Could anyone explain why the "Last Token" column of the monthly discount summary table for all of my broadband referrals displays N/A?
This table claims "See how much you're earning from referrals this month"  but I can't see how this table helps me work out what I might be getting/due.

[#9]

Hi Scott
Could you take a look over my account please?  The totals taken from the last 2 invoices seem to be off values (£5.15 and £5.65), and one of the "total credits" on the referrals is £3.30.
Many thanks
Phil

[#10]

I'll have a look over it in the morning for you.

[#11]

Thanks Scott.  There's a referral value of 0.00 in there as well for you!
Thanks
Phil

[#12]

Managed to have a quick look now. Yours appears to have out of nowhere for one of your referred accounts started paying extra on the tokens.....it hasn't been in the same situation as Kevin's.
Will have to look into that one a bit further!

[#13]

Thanks Scott.  If it's paying too much, then you don't have to fix it if you don't want too! 
Thanks
Phil

[#14]

Sometimes long fix times can turn out to be a benefit!

[#15]

Quote from: Scott

What happens when your referrals exceed your subscription value is a partial token redemption is done (For you, you can see such an example on invoice 39429940). These odd values are then tracked on the referral system. Hopefully that clears those scenarios up for you ?

Hi Scott,
The invoice 39429940 is not listed on my account history - are you sure you have the correct account?
I appreciate your attempt to clarify matters, but I remain unconvinced that all is well.  The workings of the referral system - especially where referral value exceeds subscription value - is far from transparent.  For around two years, my referral values have been "all over  the place" with month on month odd values which are not multiples of the various token values, even when the referral value was less than the subscription value.  Below is the last two year's billing & referral discount history.

Invoice	Value	Balance	Invoice Date	Status	Description
46105953	-£5.97	0	28 Nov 2013	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
46105952	£7.20	1.23	28 Nov 2013	Part-Paid	Scheduled Payments
45328108	-£5.97	0	28 Oct 2013	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
45328106	£6.49	0	28 Oct 2013	Fully Paid	Scheduled Payments
44584233	-£6.19	0	28 Sep 2013	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
44584229	£8.45	0	28 Sep 2013	Fully Paid	Scheduled Payments
43845660	-£6.49	0	28 Aug 2013	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
43845658	£6.49	0	28 Aug 2013	Fully Paid	Scheduled Payments
43244491	£125.88	0	02 Aug 2013	Fully Paid	Line Rental Saver
43120253	-£6.49	0	28 Jul 2013	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
43120251	-£5.05	0	28 Jul 2013	Credit Note	Referral Tokens Credit Payment
43120249	£6.49	0	28 Jul 2013	Fully Paid	Scheduled Payments
42404414	-£6.49	0	28 Jun 2013	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
42404412	£6.49	0	28 Jun 2013	Fully Paid	Scheduled Payments
42070972	£5.99	0	13 Jun 2013	Fully Paid	Postage and Packaging
41692900	-£6.49	0	28 May 2013	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
41692899	£6.49	0	28 May 2013	Fully Paid	Scheduled Payments
40996113	-£6.49	0	28 Apr 2013	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
40996109	£6.71	0	28 Apr 2013	Fully Paid	Scheduled Payments
40304505	-£6.49	0	28 Mar 2013	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
40304503	£6.49	0	28 Mar 2013	Fully Paid	Scheduled Payments
39625830	-£6.49	0	28 Feb 2013	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
39625829	£6.49	0	28 Feb 2013	Fully Paid	Scheduled Payments
38947522	-£6.49	0	28 Jan 2013	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
38947521	£6.49	0	28 Jan 2013	Fully Paid	Scheduled Payments
38284556	-£6.49	0	28 Dec 2012	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
38284553	£6.75	0	28 Dec 2012	Fully Paid	Scheduled Payments
37641453	-£6.49	0	28 Nov 2012	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
37641450	-£5.55	0	28 Nov 2012	Credit Note	Referral Tokens Credit Payment
37641449	£6.49	0	28 Nov 2012	Fully Paid	Scheduled Payments
36996912	-£6.49	0	28 Oct 2012	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
36996911	£6.49	0	28 Oct 2012	Fully Paid	Scheduled Payments
36356905	-£6.49	0	28 Sep 2012	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
36356903	£6.84	0	28 Sep 2012	Fully Paid	Scheduled Payments
36328146	£113.88	0	26 Sep 2012	Fully Paid	Line Rental Saver
35725835	-£9.34	0	28 Aug 2012	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
35725830	£31.11	0	28 Aug 2012	Fully Paid	Account Billing (2012-08-28 to 2012-09-27) And Scheduled Payments
35105637	-£9.34	0	28 Jul 2012	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
35105634	£29.64	0	28 Jul 2012	Fully Paid	Account Billing (2012-07-28 to 2012-08-27) And Scheduled Payments
34484822	-£9.34	0	28 Jun 2012	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
34484821	£28.18	0	28 Jun 2012	Fully Paid	Account Billing (2012-06-28 to 2012-07-27) And Scheduled Payments
33867540	-£9.34	0	28 May 2012	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
33867537	£69.06	0	28 May 2012	Fully Paid	Account Billing (2012-05-28 to 2012-06-27) And Scheduled Payments
33480822	£50.00	0	09 May 2012	Fully Paid	One-off payment for Home Phone Top-Up credit
33257153	-£12.28	0	28 Apr 2012	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
33257152	£30.83	0	28 Apr 2012	Fully Paid	Account Billing (2012-04-28 to 2012-05-27) And Scheduled Payments
32648253	-£14.99	0	28 Mar 2012	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
32648251	£29.56	0	28 Mar 2012	Fully Paid	Account Billing (2012-03-28 to 2012-04-27) And Scheduled Payments
32045119	£30.38	0	28 Feb 2012	Fully Paid	Account Billing (2012-02-28 to 2012-03-27) And Scheduled Payments
31444272	-£9.34	0	28 Jan 2012	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
31444271	£28.38	0	28 Jan 2012	Fully Paid	Account Billing (2012-01-28 to 2012-02-27) And Scheduled Payments
30854423	-£8.84	0	28 Dec 2011	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
30854420	£28.18	0	28 Dec 2011	Fully Paid	Account Billing (2011-12-28 to 2012-01-27) And Scheduled Payments
30259218	-£8.84	0	28 Nov 2011	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
30259217	£28.94	0	28 Nov 2011	Fully Paid	Account Billing (2011-11-28 to 2011-12-27) And Scheduled Payments
29672439	-£8.05	0	28 Oct 2011	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
29672438	£26.98	0	28 Oct 2011	Fully Paid	Account Billing (2011-10-28 to 2011-11-27) And Scheduled Payments
29087196	-£8.05	0	28 Sep 2011	Credit Note	Reduction of subscription charges by the referral scheme
29087195	£27.27	0	28 Sep 2011	Fully Paid	Account Billing (2011-09-28 to 2011-10-27) And Scheduled Payments

Sept 2011, my BB subscription was £14.99 and the referral discount was £8.05.  This is not a value which is a multiple of referral token values (it is my understanding that referral values have always been multiples of 25p); it is therefore not transparent as to how that figure was arrived at
Nov 2011, my referral discount changes to £8.84 - a change of 79p - not a multiple of a referral token
Jan 2012, my referral value goes up by 50p to £9.34 (new referral? - though note that I have 3 x 50p new referrals becoming active between 10th Nov 2011 and 10th Dec 2011)
Mar 2012, my referral value goes up to £14.99 - coincidently the same as my subscription value and in Apr 2012, my referral value is £12.28 - this looks like a sort out of no payment in Feb 2012 but the figures do not add up!
May 2012 the 'background' value of £9.34 pervades until Aug 2012 after which I swap BB package and take LSR thereby reducing my monthly subscription to £6.49
Sept 2012 onwards, the reported referral value is 'capped' at £6.49 with no visibility of the referral value which exceeds the subscription value.
Sept 2013, the reported referral value falls by 50p (closed referral may be - but cannot see one - or possibly a system glitch?) to £6.19 - this is still not a sensible multiple of referral token values and is less than my subscription value therefore there should be no capping
Oct / Nov 2013, the reported referral value falls by another 22p - which in itself is not a recognised token value and leaves a sum which is less than my subscription value and not a multiple of known token values.
I recognise that there are two "over £5 surplus" payments, however the way that data has been reported does not provide a transparent means to see what is going on. I submit that the following is true and that some attempt to rectify matters (rather than explain away) would bring greater transparency to the referral system.

1. Not all token values reported in a user's referral list are correct - we know that the zero value on essentials packages is being addressed, however that does not explain the 60p on Business BB Option 2 which according to my current referrals page totals £20.36 - where on earth does the odd 36p come from?

Business

Broadband Option 2

27/02/10

08/12/13

N/A

£0.60

44

£20.36

active

2. The sum of referral values earned should be clearly reported, not just the value set against subscription charges
3. Where referral value exceeds subscription charges, the balance of the surplus should be clearly reported on the referrals page - that is current month's referral 'earnings' and 'surplus pot' to date
4. Where there are charges above service subscriptions (e.g. call charges) to simplify things for everyone (and reduce PN's costs) if there is sufficient surplus in the 'pot' that credit should be applied to those additional charges to thereby avoid the need / cost of processing a DD payment

I know that you are busy, but a clear answer that explains what has happened and what (if anything) needs to be done to rectify the lack of transparency in the referral system would be most welcome.  In years gone by, it has been the referral system which grew PN's user base and indeed contributed towards customer loyalty - the scheme ought to be totally transparent - that is be seen to be functioning correctly.

Kind regards,
Kevin