Split phone number (move to VoIP) from broadband

[#1]

@greygit1 Who 'owns' the number - if it is not BT, then that is true, but if it is BT , then it does work.

[#2]

Thanks Brian, to clarify ONT positioning:

1) Will the ONT need to be on the inside wall directly behind where the new wire from outside enters the external wall?, or

2) Can the ONT can be positioned further inside the house, i.e. can the installer extend the ONT inside the property, or is that only possible with an ethernet extension to the router?

The main problem will be getting power to a convenient front of house wall, and then the ONT plus ethernet wire running around the room, etc. All possible, but potentially a bit untidy.

[#3]

Will the ONT need to be on the inside wall directly behind where the new wire from outside enters the external wall

That is the preferred location as it's easier for the installation engineer.

Can the ONT can be positioned further inside the house, i.e. can the installer extend the ONT inside the property

I believe up to 10m of Fibre can be installed internally from the CSP(grey external box), however the engineer will not drill through internal walls, they will simply clip to skirting boards. If you install trunking and/or a draw wire they may well agree to use that.

Additionally it is possible for them to route fibre externally such that the CSP is located more suitably not on the front facing wall. What they will NOT do is install the CSP at anything other than ground level, they do not have equipment suitable to terminate fibre at height!.

[#4]

Thank you for the continuous guidance, very much appreciated 😀!

Right, the current master socket location is located about 3M inside a fron of house room, I'm not there so I can't confirm how the wire reaches that spot, but it's good to know that some internal fibre cable can be run around the room, which should be sufficient for this installation.

One more clarification (of a point discussed earlier)... the whole goal for me here is to be confident that I can extract the landline phone number, the MIL does not really need fibre and SoGEA on the current installation would be fine. My question is, can I guarantee the release of the copper line and existing phone number without going to fibre, and if so, how?  ps I've not tried calling CS yet, I'm not too confident that they will really understand this detail 🤔!

[#5]

@aks100 

I was going to say the external fibre could be routed round the side of the house (perhaps even to the back) but @MisterW beat me too it. However, you wouldn't know until the day when the installer has a chance to look at things.

As stated, it appears they will run up to 10 mtrs internally. I got my ONT put on the back wall of the front room not realising they would staple the fibre to the skirting board. Will post a picture shortly.

Brian

[#6]

Cool, thanks Brian, it seems I might have a few practical options then.

[#7]

@aks100 

This is my incoming cable install in early 2018.

The white cap was flush with the wall when fitted but they installer put the external protection back on the wall it got pushed out.

Porting from an FTTC upgrade does seem to be working reasonably well but COT may be the people to speak to. Personally I would go for FTTP just to get it over and done with. One off hassel with the install then easy port of the number from the still open account.

Brian

[#8]

One more clarification (of a point discussed earlier)... the whole goal for me here is to be confident that I can extract the landline phone number, the MIL does not really need fibre and SoGEA on the current installation would be fine. My question is, can I guarantee the release of the copper line and existing phone number without going to fibre, and if so, how?

@aks100 ok , I'll try and clarify the situation. In principle it SHOULD be possible to retain the number when going to SoGEA. Changing to SoGEA will 'cease' the landline and in the past that would have prevented a number port, since ONLY active numbers could be ported. In Apr 2023, Ofcom introduced a 'right to port' which gave customers the ability to port a ceased number for up to 30 days. The 'fly in the ointment' is that some voip providers still seem to claim that a number must be active to be ported. This is not correct, some of their automated porting systems MAY insist that the number must be active, but requesting a manual port should be ok. Trying to convince them to do a manual port can be problematic and time consuming, Sipgate in particular seem very stubborn whereas A & A seem to be less troublesome. So in reality porting the number after changing to SoGEA depends on how much effort you are prepared to put in. Note that there will be downtime, as even if the port goes cleanly there will be at least 5 days with no phone service.

Now in theory, moving to FF is no different if done as an upgrade. However since a FF installation provides a separate fibre cable it's possible to get that installed (by creating a new Plusnet account) whilst leaving the existing service active. Once FF is up and running, then the existing number (which is now nothing to do with the new FF account) can be ported. Since the number is still 'active' porting is much more straightforward and should be guaranteed (in as much as anything can be?)  to work. Also if the voip equipment is set up in advance there will be no break of service. The only down side of this approach is ithat the facilities of the old PN account e.g email, referrals will be lost, and of course there will be a period (a week or so) where you are paying for both services. Also beware that if the existing service is still in contract, then there may be ETC's, although if informed in advance PN may not apply them.

Hope that clarifies

[#9]

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@MisterW wrote:

What they will NOT do is install the CSP at anything other than ground level, they do not have equipment suitable to terminate fibre at height!.

---

Thanks for that snippet of useful information!  Bit of a nightmare for me, though.  As part of my prep for all the changes ahead I've already put a sealed in conduit through the only outside wall that an overhead fibre could possibly come in through.  By necessity this is on the first floor, at close to the height of the existing phone/power pole that's about 11m away.  On the inside of that wall I've built a cabinet and installed all the house networking stuff (modem, 2 WAN router, switch, patch panel, NAS, Home Assistant server, analogue phone adapter, etc).  The master socket is also on the inside of this wall.

It's not going to be practical for the fibre to come in from the pole to the hard point high in the gable, then run down the outside of the wall to a low level CSP, as there's nowhere the CSP could be fitted at low level, plus I don't want the fibre coming down the wall and then going all the way back up it (and because of the position of external buildings and a doorway this isn't really an option anyway).

Looks like my plans have been well and truly scuppered, as I'd assumed that the fibre could come in along exactly the same route as the current copper pair.

[#10]

@JSHarris sorry to be the bringer of bad news!

To explain my understanding, the engineer has to cut and terminate the fibre from the pole at the CSP and that is done using a handheld piece of equipment that requires both hands to operate. Normally an engineer will use ladders to route and secure overhead cable. 'Elf' and safety precludes them from using the equipment from ladders as they would have no free hand to hold ladder!. If you have a flat roof they could work from to install a CSP at height, then that MAY be possible (I really don't know?)

If there's no other option but to install CSP at height, I would guess? that they might reschedule install requesting a 'cherry picker' but that could take some time...

[#11]

@JSHarris  - it might be worth you asking about fibre installation specifics on the ThinkBroadband forum,  as there are several Openreach and FTTP sub-contractor engineers on there that could answer what can or can't be done.

[#12]

@JSHarris 

Search online for fibre "fusing" - the joining of two fibre cable ends. There will be plenty of info on the subject. I know it usually rerquires at least a metre of fibre free at both ends of the cable to be able to use the fusing machine.

An independant ISP I follow leaves around 4 mtrs of duct from each end when they meet in an underground chamber so it can be hauled out of the ground and placed on a table for work.

I was going to say they would probable bringthe cable down to ground level for fusing and then run it back up the wall to the desire entry point if this is the first floor but you've already said this isn't feasible.

Brian

[#13]

Thanks both @MisterW and @Anonymous 

All the houses around here seem to have much the same arrangement, the existing copper comes in high on a wall and is secured to a bolted-in hook.  I'd just assumed that the fibre would come in the same way.  

I wonder if they could terminate the fibre inside the house, rather than outside?  Be very easy to do, as it would mean working inside a services room upstairs that is immediately inside the wall where the fibre will come in.

sorry for going off-topic, I'd do as suggested and have a look on the Think Broadband forum.

[#14]

@JSHarris 

Bearing in mind that installation methods have changed  several times over the years (I believe even for a period omitting the use of CSPs) since my FTTP was installed, it will probably be possible to do as you propose.

I believe the current jointing method at the CSP is broadly similar to that used on mine, albeit mine was a 2-stage 'blown fibre' installation.

FYI, my OH fibre was attached to a new eye-bolt about a metre from the one supporting the copper line (which is still in use for the PSTN), and enters the house in a different area under the eaves through a (metallic*) conduit I'd pre-installed.  It then runs for about 17.5 metres in that conduit through the loft, down a wall and under floorboards to the location of my indoor CSP (located in a service cupboard).

As an aside, the Openreach installer ran the internal fibre through a second pre-installed (plastic) conduit to the location of the ONT which is on a different floor, and very helpfully upon my request didn't cut the fibre to length, but left the excess approximately 25m of the internal fibre coiled up under the floorboards in case I ever want to move the ONT.

* Metallic due to that being stipulated in the installer booklet at the time if more than 2m of external fibre was used indoors.

[#15]

Very many thanks for that, @RobPN it's much appreciated. 

In my case I have a ~500mm length of conduit running through the gable wall, about 300mm away from the line securing eye bolt, with a cable cover cowl on the outside (one of those where the cable comes in underneath, provides a rain shield).  The wall is 500mm thick, hence the length of the conduit.  About a metre down from the inside end of the conduit, on the inside surface of the wall, I have a varnished board that currently only has the master socket, just above the top of the equipment rack.  This 19mm plywood board is about 500mm square, secured to the inside of the wall.  Adjacent to the board there's a UPS-backed mains power outlet mounted that currently powers the HG612 modem.

I'd hoped that the fibre could just be brought in through the conduit and terminated in a box fitted to the spare space on the plywood board.  From what you've said it looks like this may be possible, which would be great, as it keeps the installation neat and tidy and avoids anything having to run along and around outside walls and back simply to get around the fibre termination issue.  I can't see any problems with access for the chap doing the work, as this is, in effect, a small upstairs room with its own door leading off from one of the bedrooms.  As long as they are OK with coming into the house to do the work it should be pretty straightforward I'd have thought.