Upgrading to FTTP and Porting My Landline Number

[#1]

I'm reading a lot of conflicting information on these boards about how to upgrade from FTTC to FTTP and how to port out my landline number so I can use this with an alternative VOIP provider.

What is the correct procedure and in what order should I do things?

[#2 · Accepted solution]

@peter8671 

I assume you're talking about upgrading PN FTTC tp PN Full Fibre.

If you wish to keep your phone number you should research VOIP providers first and choose which one you want to use. A&A appear to have good prices and have migrated PN customers before now. I believe you can set up your account in advance ready to port when FTTP is installed. There will probably be a few days down time on your phone.

https://www.aa.net.uk/voice-and-mobile/voip-information/

You also need to look at your phone to see if it works with VOIP. You might need to buy an Analogue Telephone Adaptor (ATA). If you have extensions on your phone line that that's an added complication. Another complication is VOIP doesn't work during power cuts.

Once you're happy with VOIP order your upgrade with PN. Hopefully all will go well on the designated day.

Once FTTP is up and running you lose your phone service. You need to port the number ASAP to your chosen provider. Do not port before the install in case there are any problems on the day.

Brian

[#3]

FYI, I just tried this, and at this point its looking very much like PN has "lost" my landline number of 30 years.

I was assured that the process of moving to the SoGEA offering would put the landline number into the correct status to allow a VoIP provider (A&A in my case) to port-in the number.

The SoGEA broadband offering went live on Wednesday, and today A&A are telling me that they cannot port-in my old landline number because its been simply ceased, rather than being put into quarantine status from where they can process a port-in request.

Trying to get a clear answer from PN on exactly how this has happened is proving very difficult. Feels like no-one has been given any training on this scenario because I get different information from each person that I talk to. So if keeping your landline number is important to you I would be very wary at this point in time.

* Hopefully not really "lost", but getting it back now likely to involve OFCOM, so really not fun.

[#4]

@rmappleby 

Although he's no longer a member of the support team I've tagged @Gandalf  as he at least knows something about FTTP on PlusNet

Brian

[#5]

From the discussing this with our suppliers previously, there’s really not much we can do as the process is gaining provider-led. However, if a provider is having any issues porting a number, then our suppliers have explained they can contact their number porting helpdesk for assistance with completing the port. 

[#6]

Hi @Gandalf 

If it were a simple matter of just porting the number out then I agree, it would be initiated and managed by the gaining provider.

However, in this case, PN are driving a change themselves (to move the line to SoGEA), and I am asking them to also make my number available (under the number portability regulations) for use with a VoIP provider. Since PSTN is going to go away, this is likely to be a fairly common request.

Maybe because PN has chosen not to be a VoIP provider themselves, doing the upgrade to SoGEA or FTTP cannot be a painless switch. Either PN initiates the SoGEA order and terminates the landline number, or the VoIP provider initiates the port-in of the landline number, and terminates the broadband package. 

So if my VoIP provider initiated the port-in of the phone number, that would cease the broadband package that is associated with the line. That would break my contract with PN, and if like me, you are on FTTC looking to move to SoGEA, and happen to be provisioned in a completely full cabinet, then you really *REALLY* don't want to be releasing your place in the cabinet...

From talking to A&A and reading some of the industry docs from NICC and OTA2, it seems that PN should have been able to put the landline number into quarantine, which would have allowed the number to then be ported into my VoIP provider. But from the responses I am getting from the PN helpline, I think in practice PN has just ceased it, which has likely returned the number to the Range Holder (BT in my case). So its now out of the (easy*) reach of PN, and very definitely out of the reach of my VoIP provider.

I'm pretty sure the problem here is that PN should not have just ceased the landline number and let it go back to the range holder. Looking at the OFCOM documentation, it seems like they should be holding all numbers that they cease for a minimum of 30 days to allow a migration to take place (ie, putting them into quarantine, as I repeatedly asked them to do). 

But whatever the cause, I do need PN to resolve this. I'll talk to OFCOM on Monday and then raise a formal dispute with PN.

[#7]

@rmappleby  Very well said !

This is EXACTLY why I didn't trust Plusnet to get it right, so I let A&A simultaneously manage BOTH my Plusnet to A&A broadband transfer, and Pulse8 landline to A&A VoIP migration.  A&A's careful procedure of changing one thing at a time went perfectly with zero broadband downtime, no downtime for making outgoing telephone calls, and just a couple of hours of not being able to receive telephone calls as my incoming number changed suppliers, and I kept my landline phone number of more than 50 years !

@rmappleby - wishing you luck with getting your phone number back !  😟

.

[#8]

Hi @rmappleby 

I’m sorry to hear you’re having a lot of issues. 

From our point of view we don’t have control over what happens to a number once the phone service is stopped.

I do agree though that a number should be able to be ported if stopped within the last 31 days, so I’d definitely see if they can contact Openreach’s number porting team to help, if they’re having any issues with this.

Additionally, we manage the upgrade to SoGEA which stops the phone service as agreed, however if another provider chooses to port the number, they would have to manage this as per the gaining provider-led process. 

[#9]

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@Gandalf wrote:

I’m sorry to hear you’re having a lot of issues. 

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There is only one issue here - getting the landline number ported out from PN and into A&A. And I'm sorry too. I've been with PN for *many* years and this is first problem I've had. The agents I've talked to are all very helpful, but no-one I can get to appears to actually understand this stuff, so we're not making any progress towards a resolution.

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@Gandalf wrote:

From our point of view we don’t have control over what happens to a number once the phone service is stopped.

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So given what you've told me, is it the case that PN don't deal with any of the telephony side at all, and subcontract all of that to OpenReach? So you raise a ticket (or more likely your order automation system issues an order) to a team in OpenReach, and then they implement it? If so then it would go some way to explaining the problem - PN just want rid of the number, and OpenReach likely don't consider the need for anything other than to get the number back to the Range Holder. I wonder if they are implementing any of the hold/quarantine processes at all?

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@Gandalf wrote:

I do agree though that a number should be able to be ported if stopped within the last 31 days, so I’d definitely see if they can contact Openreach’s number porting team to help, if they’re having any issues with this.

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Agreed. Its very clear in the OFCOM regs. And I understand what you are saying, but the issue here is about responsibility. I had and have a contract with PN. PN are the regulated provider and are responsible for meeting the OFCOM regs. I strongly feel that PN needs to get my number into a state where A&A can port it in, as the regulations say. It's absolutely not A&A's responsibility to navigate PN's internal business relationships so they can try to negotiate the state of individual numbers. That represents a massive barrier to number portability, and is clearly anti-competitive.

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@Gandalf wrote:

Additionally, we manage the upgrade to SoGEA which stops the phone service as agreed, however if another provider chooses to port the number, they would have to manage this as per the gaining provider-led process. 

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I agree that from the perspective of the broadband order, the SoGEA order worked. But the commitments made to me that the phone number would be put into a state where it could be ported to my VoIP provider were not met, and I specifically stated to the agents that I only wished to progress the SoGEA order if the landline number was put into quarantine state so I could port it into A&A. If PN couldn't do that they should NOT have progressed that order.

[#10]

So given what you've told me, is it the case that PN don't deal with any of the telephony side at all, and subcontract all of that to OpenReach?

I'm not sure its Openreach, rather its BT Group number porting. PN operate under the same CUPID ( Communications provider ID ) as EE & BT retail. But that's correct , PN do not deal with the telepony side at all.

The SoGEA broadband offering went live on Wednesday, and today A&A are telling me that they cannot port-in my old landline number because its been simply ceased, rather than being put into quarantine status from where they can process a port-in request.

Have A & A actually made a port request ? or simply checked the status ? I ask because I'm not sure the number goes direct to quarantine under the new system, rather it is 'held' for 31 days and then goes back into the pool (since any quarantine period is now no longer needed )

Ther was a case not long ago, where A & A said they couldnt port a number and another voip supplier had no problem once they actually submitted the port. As @Gandalf said , A & A should contact the BT porting helpdesk

edit : the actual porting procedure is decsribed here http://www.offta.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/234045/number-porting-quick-start-guide.pdf

[#11]

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@MisterW wrote:

I'm not sure its Openreach, rather its BT Group number porting. PN operate under the same CUPID ( Communications provider ID ) as EE & BT retail. But that's correct , PN do not deal with the telepony side at all.

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Ok, that's really helpful, thanks.

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@MisterW wrote:

Have A & A actually made a port request ? or simply checked the status ? I ask because I'm not sure the number goes direct to quarantine under the new system, rather it is 'held' for 31 days and then goes back into the pool (since any quarantine period is now no longer needed )

Ther was a case not long ago, where A & A said they couldnt port a number and another voip supplier had no problem once they actually submitted the port. As @Gandalf said , A & A should contact the BT porting helpdesk

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To be fair, they haven't told me the specific details. The exact statement from them was "Unfortunately the port has been rejected as the number has been ceased and doesn’t appear to have been put into quarantine as the rejection is due to no service on the number. You will need to speak to the losing provider regarding this."

The strong implication was that they had tried the port and it had been rejected. I will ask on Monday when their tech team is next available.

Will A&A know how to get access to the BT Porting Helpdesk, or is there a specific way to get through to them ("Shibboleet", perhaps 🤣) ?

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@MisterW wrote:

edit : the actual porting procedure is decsribed here http://www.offta.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/234045/number-porting-quick-start-guide.pdf

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Yep, read that earlier in the week. Now working through http://www.offta.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/145730/GNPE2E-Ops-process.pdf. You can see why this stuff goes wrong...

Speaking of which, I think the numbers of people wanting to keep their landline number as they are moved to SoGEA or FTTP will rise rapidly as PN start to hit the people that are not early adopters. They will be older, have had their landlines (much) longer, think of a telephone as "the thing in the hall", and will not be easily able to give them up because of "history". PN will save themselves heaps of pain if they have a standard, working solution for this. PN don't have to provide the solution (could be BT Digital Voice) but they do need to make it easy and scalable to get their ex-phone service customers on to it.

[#12]

As regards the rejection:-

To be fair, they haven't told me the specific details. The exact statement from them was "Unfortunately the port has been rejected as the number has been ceased and doesn’t appear to have been put into quarantine as the rejection is due to no service on the number. You will need to speak to the losing provider regarding this."

The strong implication was that they had tried the port and it had been rejected. I will ask on Monday when their tech team is next available.

According to the OFFTA document

If a CP believes that an order has been rejected incorrectly, then this should be discussed on a bi-lateral basis
between the relevant CPs.

Will A&A know how to get access to the BT Porting Helpdesk, or is there a specific way to get through to them ("Shibboleet", perhaps ) ?

Again, according to the OFFTA document, YES

Contacts Register
As part of the establishment process, CPs exchange a Porting Contacts Register, which gives contact details for
service establishment and maintenance, order handling, port failure and emergency restoration and fault repair.
It is the responsibility of each CP to ensure that this document is accurate and up-to date and inform their
porting partners of any changes.

Basically , the OFFTA document is not entirely clear on what it expects to happen in the 'right to port' scenario (typical!), althought it does say that the losing CP should process a valid port against a number that's been ceased.

Its clear that in the event of an incorrect rejection , then its the gaining CP's responsibility to liase with the losing CP , not the customers!

[#13]

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@MisterW wrote:

Basically , the OFFTA document is not entirely clear on what it expects to happen in the 'right to port' scenario (typical!), althought it does say that the losing CP should process a valid port against a number that's been ceased.

Its clear that in the event of an incorrect rejection , then its the gaining CP's responsibility to liase with the losing CP , not the customers!

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Which in an ideal world, would be fine. Unfortunately, back in the real world that we all inhabit...

Anyway, let me have another chat with A&A on Monday and see where I can get to.

[#14]

@rmappleby wrote:
Will A&A know how to get access to the BT Porting Helpdesk, or is there a specific way to get through to them ("Shibboleet", perhaps 🤣) ?

The team we contact who manage our number ports are Openreach. There is a ‘customer service plan’ for CP’s on their website, which is accessible via an internal login. 

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@rmappleby wrote:
PN will save themselves heaps of pain if they have a standard, working solution for this. PN don't have to provide the solution (could be BT Digital Voice) but they do need to make it easy and scalable to get their ex-phone service customers on to it.

That’s actually precisely what we can offer. For those wanting to upgrade to fibre while keeping their phone service, we offer BT broadband and Digital Voice.

[#15]

@Gandalf  You say ..."That’s actually precisely what we can offer. For those wanting to upgrade to fibre while keeping their phone service, we offer BT broadband and Digital Voice."

However for customers who have no intention of being forced to migrate to BT,  Plusnet appear to be making it extremely difficult for them to port their existing number to a VOIP provider of their choice, despite the OFCOM ruling that the number must be available to port for 30 odd days after a line has been ceased. Some customers have managed to do it, possible by some lucky chance in the timing of the ordering systems, but others have had trouble. The process is very hit and miss when it should be a reliable method of achieving the correct end result.