The pain...
If plusnet think turning interleaving on is going to help much with my fault, then they have plainly ignored all my attempts to alert them to a wide area fault.
I understand that their hands are tied somewhat, but excuses don't bode well with me. In my job I'm expected to provide answers and get results regardless of the third parties I have to deal with. If the communication and/or reporting system is flawed between ISPs and BT Openreach/Wholesale then it's time that someone fixed it.
Without question Malton exchange has severe problems and it is without doubt nothing to do with interleaving.
Turning it on only attempts to hide the real issue which is effecting at least 4 providers at the exchange; plusnet, talktalk, orange & BT.
I have in front of me 5 sets of adsl stats taken over 24 hours with large amounts of FEC, HEC and CRC errors accumulated.
Along with that I have download tests from said routers showing rates on average of less than 300Kbps.
And to complete the pile of crap I have screenshots of BT Speed Tests showing that all routers have good line sync and healthy IP Profiles.
Yet still I cannot get through to anyone that 'MY' issue is not just 'MY' issue, so we continue to waste time and I continue to pull my hair out in frustration... and I haven't got much to start with
I understand that their hands are tied somewhat, but excuses don't bode well with me. In my job I'm expected to provide answers and get results regardless of the third parties I have to deal with. If the communication and/or reporting system is flawed between ISPs and BT Openreach/Wholesale then it's time that someone fixed it.
Without question Malton exchange has severe problems and it is without doubt nothing to do with interleaving.
Turning it on only attempts to hide the real issue which is effecting at least 4 providers at the exchange; plusnet, talktalk, orange & BT.
I have in front of me 5 sets of adsl stats taken over 24 hours with large amounts of FEC, HEC and CRC errors accumulated.
Along with that I have download tests from said routers showing rates on average of less than 300Kbps.
And to complete the pile of crap I have screenshots of BT Speed Tests showing that all routers have good line sync and healthy IP Profiles.
Yet still I cannot get through to anyone that 'MY' issue is not just 'MY' issue, so we continue to waste time and I continue to pull my hair out in frustration... and I haven't got much to start with
Speedtest.net results carry no weight at all. What will count is BT speedtest results showing speeds well below the IP Profile.
Do the speeds achieved vary throughout the day? A speedtest at 7:30 am showing a healthy speed and an evening test on the same line showing poor speed would be just the evidence PN need to kick BT's butt!
Do the speeds achieved vary throughout the day? A speedtest at 7:30 am showing a healthy speed and an evening test on the same line showing poor speed would be just the evidence PN need to kick BT's butt!
I know you're annoyed, and want to rant, but some of the data you put forward there is self-contradictory. Or at least inconsistent...
If you are getting genuine FEC errors counted, then you already have interleaving turned on.
If you are getting zero genuine FEC errors, but are getting significant numbers of genuine CRC and/or HEC errors, then Plusnet are right - turning interleaving on is indeed the first step to trying to trace the problem. And frankly, it is hard to go further to determine just how much of a wide-spread problem exists if there are also significant individual line-based problem getting in the way too.
Both types of errors are indeed individual to your line, and not an indication of any kind of wide-area fault. Unless, of course, every line is suffering the same level of line faults due to some serious interference source next to the exchange.
If you are getting all 3 types (genuinely) in large numbers, then you are suffering line problems, even with interleaving on. That is still an issue that is affecting the one line, and probably requires a visit from a BT engineer. You'll need this before BT would consider escalating the issue up to their REIN investigations team - which is probably the starting point of what is needed if there were town-wide interference issues.
Unfortunately, and the reason I used the word 'genuine' rather too frequently, the reporting of statistics is one area that many routers fail badly on - in particular the displaying of spurious, infeasibly large values, and even more particularly the upstream values. To be sure the values are genuine, you have to be reasonably sure you've seen them start from zero, and grow large. How many of each kind of error are you encountering each hour? are there any patterns over the course of a day? Or with phone calls? Or with the weather?
The problem with asserting all of those things together is that, in the last statement, there is nothing in common between the TalkTalk equipment and the BT equipment (which is indeed common to the BT ISP, Plusnet, and is probably common to Orange too).
Without knowing how many problems are caused by the one line, and how many are caused by town-wide problem, it is impossible to say with impunity what problems are then common to BT and TalkTalk.
As jelv noted, the best way to show that BT's equipment is have a wide-ranging problem is to show BT Speedtester results at different times of the day, including the profile/sync speed values if possible. Decent test speeds overnight, early morning and daytime, compared with poor test speeds between 8PM and 10PM is a very good set of evidence.
Its a shame you didn't post the router's stats, and the BT results, rather than the speedtest.net results. They'd be an awful lot more useful to get you help with your problem, and stop us pulling *our* hair out too 😉
Quote from: dannyflounders If plusnet think turning interleaving on is going to help much with my fault, then they have plainly ignored all my attempts to alert them to a wide area fault.
I have in front of me 5 sets of adsl stats taken over 24 hours with large amounts of FEC, HEC and CRC errors accumulated.
If you are getting genuine FEC errors counted, then you already have interleaving turned on.
If you are getting zero genuine FEC errors, but are getting significant numbers of genuine CRC and/or HEC errors, then Plusnet are right - turning interleaving on is indeed the first step to trying to trace the problem. And frankly, it is hard to go further to determine just how much of a wide-spread problem exists if there are also significant individual line-based problem getting in the way too.
Both types of errors are indeed individual to your line, and not an indication of any kind of wide-area fault. Unless, of course, every line is suffering the same level of line faults due to some serious interference source next to the exchange.
If you are getting all 3 types (genuinely) in large numbers, then you are suffering line problems, even with interleaving on. That is still an issue that is affecting the one line, and probably requires a visit from a BT engineer. You'll need this before BT would consider escalating the issue up to their REIN investigations team - which is probably the starting point of what is needed if there were town-wide interference issues.
Unfortunately, and the reason I used the word 'genuine' rather too frequently, the reporting of statistics is one area that many routers fail badly on - in particular the displaying of spurious, infeasibly large values, and even more particularly the upstream values. To be sure the values are genuine, you have to be reasonably sure you've seen them start from zero, and grow large. How many of each kind of error are you encountering each hour? are there any patterns over the course of a day? Or with phone calls? Or with the weather?
Quote from: dannyflounders ... then they have plainly ignored all my attempts to alert them to a wide area fault.
... If the communication and/or reporting system is flawed between ISPs and BT Openreach/Wholesale then it's time that someone fixed it.
Without question Malton exchange has severe problems and it is without doubt nothing to do with interleaving.
Turning it on only attempts to hide the real issue which is effecting at least 4 providers at the exchange; plusnet, talktalk, orange & BT.
The problem with asserting all of those things together is that, in the last statement, there is nothing in common between the TalkTalk equipment and the BT equipment (which is indeed common to the BT ISP, Plusnet, and is probably common to Orange too).
Without knowing how many problems are caused by the one line, and how many are caused by town-wide problem, it is impossible to say with impunity what problems are then common to BT and TalkTalk.
As jelv noted, the best way to show that BT's equipment is have a wide-ranging problem is to show BT Speedtester results at different times of the day, including the profile/sync speed values if possible. Decent test speeds overnight, early morning and daytime, compared with poor test speeds between 8PM and 10PM is a very good set of evidence.
Quote from: dannyflounders I have in front of me 5 sets of adsl stats taken over 24 hours with large amounts of FEC, HEC and CRC errors accumulated.
Along with that I have download tests from said routers showing rates on average of less than 300Kbps.
And to complete the pile of [Censored] I have screenshots of BT Speed Tests showing that all routers have good line sync and healthy IP Profiles.
Yet still I cannot get through to anyone that 'MY' issue is not just 'MY' issue, so we continue to waste time and I continue to pull my hair out in frustration... and I haven't got much to start with
Its a shame you didn't post the router's stats, and the BT results, rather than the speedtest.net results. They'd be an awful lot more useful to get you help with your problem, and stop us pulling *our* hair out too 😉
@WWWombat
I appreciate speedtest.net results are inaccurate but they are not useless, not when used regularly over multiple servers.
They may not give such an accurate result as BT test, but they provide baseline figures to work from if you continually use the same tests.
In actual fact I don't use it normally and I wasn't displaying them for any evidential reason, I've already provided plusnet with adsl stats from routers and some bt speedtest results, albeit not regular.
Here's my last one from the workshop on BT, and yes I should spend my time doing BT Speedtests because I have nothing better to do than to chase up faults.
Actually, I've spent all week running around answering customers calls to why their broadband connections are bordering useless.
And no I haven't contradicted myself. When I signed up I requested plusnet to turn off interleaving, I have a good quality line and it can stand it.
Some months back I requested them to check interleaving because my pings were high, they told me it was OFF, but set to auto, so put in a request to make it 'OFF'.
So if all these FEC errors only occur when interleaving is on then I am being given the runaround.
Out of the 7 customers I have visited, the average error count in 17 hours is; 70,000+ FEC errors, 1000+ CRC errors and 300+ HEC errors.
Some customer are well over the 100,000+ mark.
Routers vary: Netgear, Plusnet supplied, BT Voyager 220V, Orange Livebox, Belkin - all full of errors with interleaving on, all with exact same symptoms.
I appreciate speedtest.net results are inaccurate but they are not useless, not when used regularly over multiple servers.
They may not give such an accurate result as BT test, but they provide baseline figures to work from if you continually use the same tests.
In actual fact I don't use it normally and I wasn't displaying them for any evidential reason, I've already provided plusnet with adsl stats from routers and some bt speedtest results, albeit not regular.
Here's my last one from the workshop on BT, and yes I should spend my time doing BT Speedtests because I have nothing better to do than to chase up faults.
Actually, I've spent all week running around answering customers calls to why their broadband connections are bordering useless.
And no I haven't contradicted myself. When I signed up I requested plusnet to turn off interleaving, I have a good quality line and it can stand it.
Some months back I requested them to check interleaving because my pings were high, they told me it was OFF, but set to auto, so put in a request to make it 'OFF'.
So if all these FEC errors only occur when interleaving is on then I am being given the runaround.
Out of the 7 customers I have visited, the average error count in 17 hours is; 70,000+ FEC errors, 1000+ CRC errors and 300+ HEC errors.
Some customer are well over the 100,000+ mark.
Routers vary: Netgear, Plusnet supplied, BT Voyager 220V, Orange Livebox, Belkin - all full of errors with interleaving on, all with exact same symptoms.
@dannyflounders,
Sorry if you feel unhappy with your experience of our support. When we handle faults like this one interleaving is applied automatically in the majority of cases. However we're not going to force anyone to do this and we won't insist on doing that before we look at other things, if you have let us know that you don't want this we should be taking that request into account. If you feel that has happened however I'd be concerned so do let me know.
I have to agree that there may be an issue at the exchange perhaps relating to interference. Our suppliers do give us the ability to track 'common faults' where large number of users at the same exchange are affected by the same problem and I'll see how quickly that can be investigated.
Let me take ownership of your issue and I'll escalate this as needed, I can see a colleague of mine has already been helping and I'd like to speak with him first so I'll make that a priority today and will get back to you ASAP.
Sorry if you feel unhappy with your experience of our support. When we handle faults like this one interleaving is applied automatically in the majority of cases. However we're not going to force anyone to do this and we won't insist on doing that before we look at other things, if you have let us know that you don't want this we should be taking that request into account. If you feel that has happened however I'd be concerned so do let me know.
I have to agree that there may be an issue at the exchange perhaps relating to interference. Our suppliers do give us the ability to track 'common faults' where large number of users at the same exchange are affected by the same problem and I'll see how quickly that can be investigated.
Let me take ownership of your issue and I'll escalate this as needed, I can see a colleague of mine has already been helping and I'd like to speak with him first so I'll make that a priority today and will get back to you ASAP.
I think you are being very unreasonable. 
You are expecting BT to want to take the most sensible approach to a problem that is obviously affecting a number of users for multiple ISPs on the same exchange. We all know that that just ain't going to happen! 
You are expecting BT to want to take the most sensible approach to a problem that is obviously affecting a number of users for multiple ISPs on the same exchange. We all know that that just ain't going to happen!
Hi again,
I wasn't really implying that we have to do that, more the opposite. I just wanted to make clear for the benefit of others who may find themselves in the same scenario that rather than complain about us applying interleaving just say the word and we'll hold back on that.
With regards to VPs its very unlikely new ones would be installed, however if the VP is running to capacity (which is sometimes referred to as "running hot") then BT wholesale should be discussing with us plans to get it upgraded to cater for that. Please don't bank on this being the precise cause of the issue. I'd advise thinking of this as one of the more likely causes that we'll look at ruling out soon.
Quote I never made any attempt to stop that from happening as I appreciate there are guidelines to follow.
I wasn't really implying that we have to do that, more the opposite. I just wanted to make clear for the benefit of others who may find themselves in the same scenario that rather than complain about us applying interleaving just say the word and we'll hold back on that.
With regards to VPs its very unlikely new ones would be installed, however if the VP is running to capacity (which is sometimes referred to as "running hot") then BT wholesale should be discussing with us plans to get it upgraded to cater for that. Please don't bank on this being the precise cause of the issue. I'd advise thinking of this as one of the more likely causes that we'll look at ruling out soon.
Adam,
Why do you consider a VP hot to be likely? I've never heard of it causing lots of errors to be logged.
Why do you consider a VP hot to be likely? I've never heard of it causing lots of errors to be logged.
I haven't said that the VP would be causing the errors Jelv.
It's one of a number of things that we can't overlook when dealing with speed issues.
Quote Please don't bank on this being the precise cause of the issue. I'd advise thinking of this as one of the more likely causes that we'll look at ruling out soon.
It's one of a number of things that we can't overlook when dealing with speed issues.
Hi there,
We've seen that the VP has been reported as being on amber status so we've asked BT wholesale to run further checks as mentioned. The e-mail was sent to them yesterday and bearing in mind we usually get a response within 48 hours this shouldn't really set us back.
If its not a VP issue we won't be leaving you high and dry as we will be looking at other potential causes of your fault such as REIN (interference).
I'll make sure we keep pushing this forwards as quickly as we can for you.
We've seen that the VP has been reported as being on amber status so we've asked BT wholesale to run further checks as mentioned. The e-mail was sent to them yesterday and bearing in mind we usually get a response within 48 hours this shouldn't really set us back.
If its not a VP issue we won't be leaving you high and dry as we will be looking at other potential causes of your fault such as REIN (interference).
I'll make sure we keep pushing this forwards as quickly as we can for you.