Will plusnet provide a voip landline service?

[#1]

If BT think I’m [along with others] going to be railroaded into their clutches when my Plusnet broadband and phone contract ends then they’ve mis-judged by a margin!

That said I may use Plusnet for FTTP if they remain competitive in their pricing but I am of the opinion that if their customer base shrinks too much BT will try to ‘force’ existing Plusnet customers on to their system as Plusnet contracts expire and then close Plusnet. We’ve already seen this with Plusnet mobile. It would be interesting to know what percentage of Plusnet mobile customers have gone to EE.

I’ve already opened a VOIP account with A&A which works great! When my current Plusnet contract ends I shall port my existing number to them.

BT have a strange attitude. A friend of mine recently changed from BT to Sky for broadband and phone. BT waned the router back – fair enough although they are very cheap on eBay! On the other hand they didn’t ask for the two cordless phone handsets back! These are now being used by another person as extra handsets which quite happily register to any BT smart Hub 2.

Very odd!

[#2]

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@Batfrog wrote:

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Moderator’s Note

Quoting the full text of the previous post removed as per Forum rules

I do wish we had a clear statement from Plusnet as to exactly what they are planning with regard to phone services.  I've done the same as you, and contracted with A&A for a VOIP service, primarily to evaluate it and see whether it works reliably.  Long story, but we get a fair few power cuts here in winter, so need a reliable phone connection (there's no mobile reception on any phone here). 

I've not had any significant problems with Plusnet FTTC or the landline phone, over the past 8 years.  We always use the landline when the power fails to call the SSEN emergency number, or 105, to get an idea as to when the power may come back on (helps with managing our backup power reserve).  Also reassuring to know we can call 999 in this situation.

With the loss of the PSTN I need to do something to ensure we can make calls in an emergency, but VOIP via Plusnet's FTTC won't provide this reliably.  I can run all the kit my end OK when the mains fails as we have a standby power system (because we get so many power cuts).  The problem is that the battery backup in the FTTC cabinet falls over about 20 minutes after the power goes off, so we lose broadband.  This would mean that we also lose any VOIP phone service, even if we can power the kit our end OK.

To get around this I've been experimenting with a second hand commercial grade 4G gateway, connected to a pair of large directional antennas mounted on a 12ft pole bolted to the side of the house.  Using this system I can get a usable 2G/3G signal that's fast enough to handle VOIP.  This works fine with the fairly cheap A&A VOIP service and a £5/month SIM from Lebara.  Like the PSTN, I understand that the mobile masts have backup power that will keep them going for a long period if the grid supply goes down.  As long as I can power our kit for a couple of days we should be alright (longest power cut we've ever had was about 30 hours, most are around 4 to 8 hours).

Not knowing what Plusnet are planning to do with regard to a replacement phone service when the PSTN is turned off is annoying.  I want to both plan the best way forward and have time to test and evaluate any solution so I can be confident it will work.  The A&A service is fine, but it's annoying having to have three contracts, one with Plusnet, one with A&A and one with Lebara for the gateway SIM.  It would be a lot easier to only have to deal with one supplier, as we do at the moment with Plusnet.

The specific questions I have about the future of Plusnet's services are:

1.  Is Plusnet going to provide a VOIP service as a part of a fibre package in future?

2.  Is Plusnet going to ensure that the network side of any future broadband service will continue to operate with power outages lasting a couple of days, so it is reliable enough to use as an emergency call backbone?

3.  If Plusnet isn't going to offer a VOIP service, are they going to make it easy and fast to port an existing landline number to another VOIP provider?

I've not been able to find clear cut and definitive answers to any of the above questions.  There are regulations stating that landline numbers should be transferable, for example, but also lots of tales that this isn't really happening yet with quite a few suppliers.  For example, there doesn't yet seem to be an obvious way to change a Plusnet FTTC and landline package to just a SoGEA service (just FTTC  broadband without phone line rental or calls) and port the existing number to a VOIP provider (porting in to someone like A&A seems easy - it's the release of the number from Plusnet that seems the issue).

As a final point, the apparent lack of backup power provision for fibre services concerns me.  All very well switching landline phones from the PSTN to VOIP, but the same level of reliability needs to be retained.  If cabinets fall over after 2o minutes without mains power (as ours does) then that makes VOIP a poor replacement for the PSTN.  Not just for emergency calls, but also for all those that use other emergency devices that connect via the PSTN (like the fall alarm that an elderly relative of ours wears, for example).  I can't help but think that people are going to die unnecessarily unless there are robust solutions for those in areas without a usable mobile phone signal.

[#3]

In response to an e-,mail notification form PlusNet that an elderly relative received, I recently went to a BT (also PlusNet served by BT reps) digital switchover event recently where these issues were discussed. Below is what I got informed by the BT representative at the event:

1.  Is Plusnet going to provide a VOIP service as a part of a fibre package in future?

Plusnet will not be providing VOIP.  I need to switch to another provider (BT of course have a suitable product)

2.  Is Plusnet going to ensure that the network side of any future broadband service will continue to operate with power outages lasting a couple of days, so it is reliable enough to use as an emergency call backbone?

Without prompting I was informed that the digital phone will not work during a power outage and it was recommended to buy a battery backup product for the router. 

3.  If Plusnet isn't going to offer a VOIP service, are they going to make it easy and fast to port an existing landline number to another VOIP provider?

BT rep did make a point of telling me that if I needed a landline, then I would have to find another provider. He also made a point of telling me that BT can provide a digital voice service.

The one other question that I had is what happens to the lifeline service that my elderly relative relies on. The answer, it seems, is that the council (though whom it was sourced) can switch it to a unit that connects to the mobile network.

I have also since seen comments that the BT router does NOT reveal details of the SIP configuration for the digital phone service nor will BT provide this information. This means that one can't use 3rd party SIP apps (Linphone etc) with their service. One must use the BT router for digital voice. Another company appear to have confirmed this by pointing out that if I upgraded my current router to a newer model with a VOIP port, then I wouldn't be able to use it with the BT digital voice service. Probably worth being aware of if you are planning on switching to BT.

Due to said elderly relative relying on the landline, I will also need to retain my landline for now. I am therefore starting to look around at alternative VOIP providers. I may stick with PlusNet for broadband, as others have said, depending on the cost of the contract when it comes up for renewal and whether fibre offerings will be available (neither of us have fibre available to us yet).

Hopefully someone will be along to provide the official PlusNet responses to your questions and correct anything I have said if it is in error.

[#4]

Thanks for that, much appreciated. 

The backup issue can't be resolved by kit at my end, unfortunately, as that's not where the network problem exists.  I have a 22kWh uninterruptible battery back up system, so I can keep everything critical powered for several days if we get a power cut (longer if we get a bit of sun to top the batteries up from the solar panels)

The problem is that the FTTC cabinet in the lane some distance from us only has a battery backup that lasts about 20 minutes.  We lose broadband because of the failings with the Openreach cabinet every time there's a power cut.  I've been told this is normal, the cabinets have a nominal 30 minute battery backup when they are brand new, but with time that decreases.  I've also heard rumours that part of the issue is that our cabinet has an extender module, and they don't fit a larger battery when they add more DSLAMs this way, so the backup has to deliver more power (so lasts a shorter time).  No idea if that's true or not, I've never had a chance to look inside the cabinet.

The key safety takeaway is that the fibre broadband network is most likely not going to stay working for anywhere near as long as the PSTN network.  The PSTN works for days without grid power, I remember the phones still working back in October 1987 after we'd had no power for well over a week.

Not much use me having several days worth of backup power in the house if we can't make emergency calls because the network falls over 20 minutes after the power fails.

Another issue is that the BT supplied battery back up units (they are handing these out free to their vulnerable customers I believe) also only have a short battery life.  Not sure how long they keep going, but have heard that it's only a couple of hours.  Those of us in rural areas, where losing power for several hours at a time happens two or three times every winter, need assurances that we can still make emergency phone calls for as long as the power is out.  An aggravating factor is that mobile coverage in rural areas tends to be patchy (in our case virtually non-existent) so using a mobile for emergency calls isn't a reliable option either.

FWIW I've found that Andrews and Arnold are very good to deal with for a VOIP service.  Not expensive, either, around £1.41 per month per number, plus cal charges that are around 1.5p/minute for non-premium UK calls.  Pity that A&A are expensive for broadband, as otherwise they would be an attractive option.

[#5]

As I posted earlier, the only way I could be sure move my landline to voip was, configure the grand stream ATA device I already had for a voip service. Install a new FTTP service with a new isp, since my Plusnet contract was ending I ported my landline number onto the voip service - with this Plusnet terminated the contract

Plusnet would have been cheaper for the fibre connection - but that comes with unknown mid term price rises.

On moving the phone number away PN could have offered internet only fttc, but they didn't.

Btw. RE now offers a digital voice service, but they have invented a new name for it.

For. Battery backup, all my routers, mesh, dect phones ton on 12v. I'm tempted to get a 12v 7ah battery to run them All

[#6]

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@peterhr wrote:
For. Battery backup, all my routers, mesh, dect phones ton on 12v. I'm tempted to get a 12v 7ah battery to run them All

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Depending on how long you need to keep everything going I think you are going to need more than a 7Ah battery.  The usable energy from a 7Ah SLA (of the type commonly used in small UPS systems) is really about 60Wh. 

I have a small DC UPS that uses four 30Wh lithium iron phosphate cells.  This is just to ensure that the our modem, router etc doesn't re-boot during the tenth of a second or so it takes for our emergency power changeover switch to operate.

I did once test how long that 76Wh (usable energy) battery would keep things going on its own and it was a bit under two hours.  If it were also running the phones and an ATA (to maintain a VOIP service) then I think the run time would be somewhere around an hour.  Might be enough for those that never get lengthy power cuts, but here I think the shortest power cut we've ever had was around 4 hours, most are longer than that.

[#7]

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@JSHarris wrote:

The problem is that the FTTC cabinet in the lane some distance from us only has a battery backup that lasts about 20 minutes.  We lose broadband because of the failings with the Openreach cabinet every time there's a power cut.  I've been told this is normal, the cabinets have a nominal 30 minute battery backup when they are brand new, but with time that decreases.  I've also heard rumours that part of the issue is that our cabinet has an extender module, and they don't fit a larger battery when they add more DSLAMs this way, so the backup has to deliver more power (so lasts a shorter time).  No idea if that's true or not, I've never had a chance to look inside the cabinet.

The key safety takeaway is that the fibre broadband network is most likely not going to stay working for anywhere near as long as the PSTN network.  The PSTN works for days without grid power, I remember the phones still working back in October 1987 after we'd had no power for well over a week.

Not much use me having several days worth of backup power in the house if we can't make emergency calls because the network falls over 20 minutes after the power fails.

Another issue is that the BT supplied battery back up units (they are handing these out free to their vulnerable customers I believe) also only have a short battery life.  Not sure how long they keep going, but have heard that it's only a couple of hours.  Those of us in rural areas, where losing power for several hours at a time happens two or three times every winter, need assurances that we can still make emergency phone calls for as long as the power is out.  An aggravating factor is that mobile coverage in rural areas tends to be patchy (in our case virtually non-existent) so using a mobile for emergency calls isn't a reliable option either.

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Thank you for highlighting these issues. I was not aware that the DSLAM in the street will only have power for around 20 minutes. I had also heard from radio hams, that in the event of a power outage that mobile networks are prone to going down as much as anything else. I would imagine that maintaining a radio signal on a mobile mast would require considerable power so even if they did have a UPS, the amount of time it could stay up would also be quite limited. As you say, it seems like there is no point having a 2 hour UPS if the DSLAM stays up only for 20 minutes. Although the BT rep's advice to have battery backup is not necessarily wrong, it is definitely just as well to be aware that any benefit would be limited to however long the DSLSAM stays up!

BTW, I am also rapidly coming to the conclusion that A&A are one of the better VOIP options. For my elderly relative, a call plan might be a better option, but I have not co,me to a decision yet.

[#8]

Will Plusnet provide a VOIP landline service?

Well, given all the anecdotes and precious little evidence I doubt it. As has been said many times in this thread, not least by me  ‘The bean counters will win the day!

I’m thinking of opening a book (as in bookmaker) on what will actually happen between now and the end of PSTN.

My best guess is that all Plusnet’s customers will wake up one morning to be told they are now BT customers on the same terms until their contracts end whereupon BT will expect them to pay a lot more – probably double. My guess is that the bean counters have calculated that the losses via Plusnet will at be made up for by not having to run Plusnet.

Any takers?

Business is business – maybe BT execs all republicans – Long live Donald Trump! And to hell with minorities.

Have to go Matron’s on the prowl !!!!!!!!!!!!

[#9]

@Batphone 

Whether a mobile mast (and all the associated links that provide data to and from it) stays alive during a power cut depends a lot on the details of that particular mast's function. 

There are a masts that are allowed to fall over in the event of a power outage and not provide a long duration backup service.  In the main these are masts where there is a degree of redundancy, usually other cells nearby that can provide coverage, even if that's degraded in terms of overall performance.

There are also masts that are required to have robust backup power, so they keep running in much the same way as the PSTN.  In our case the one mast that provides a (pretty weak) signal here is earmarked to provide the emergency services network.  It also carries point to point links that enable the south west mainline train services to have connectivity in the region (although they have their own masts with highly directional sectors looking directly up and down line).  As a consequence of these high priority services the mast has both a battery backup system and a generator, much like the backup power for telephone exchanges that keeps the PSTN working when the power fails.

[#10]

@JSHarris
If the local cabinet battery backup is only lasting 20mins I would suggest it is faulty.
The battery supplies should last between 4-6 hrs
That info is buried in the resilience section of the Connected Nations documents
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/research-and-data/multi-sector-research/infrastructure-research

If you have not done so already it may be worth raising a fault with Openreach directly.
HTH

[#11]

@Protech 

Thanks for that.  Buried is the right word, took me 20 minutes of digging through stuff to find the relevant part!  The report that has the key info is this one: https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0034/249289/connected-nations-uk-report.pdf

This highlights the problems that those of us that live in power cut prone areas are having (from page 51 of that report onwards).  There is mention of that 4 to 6 hour cabinet backup, but the wording is "Most have battery back up for 4 to 6 hours but connections going through them will be severed once they lose power".  The implication is that not all have backup that lasts this long.  I can't find any legislation that forces Openreach to provide 4 to 6 hours of battery backup either. 

Contrast the cabinet backup capability with that of the exchanges and data centres, where the same document states: "The "Core Network" has robust power-resilience, with large backup generators & fuel that means they can last over 5 days".  I find it hard to understand why the street cabinets (which are the only link between consumers and the exchanges/data centres) don't have the same back up power resilience.  A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, so consumers will lose connectivity as soon as their street cabinet runs out of power. 

This is clear from the diagram in the report linked to above:

I'd like to be well-informed before doing battle with Openreach (who, in my past dealings with them when building this house proved to be absolutely the very worst company I've ever had the misfortune to deal with).  4 to 6 hours would be better than nothing, but power cuts lasting over 4 ours are not infrequent here (hence the reason we have a backup power system that can keep the house going for two or three days).  Last winter we lost power three times, and the shortest outage was about 4 hours, the other two were a lot longer than that.  We were heavily reliant on the landline phone each time this happened, both for information as to when we might expect to get power back and to reassure friends and family that we were OK.

[#12]

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@JSHarris wrote:

"The "Core Network" has robust power-resilience, with large backup generators & fuel that means they can last over 5 days".  I find it hard to understand why the street cabinets (which are the only link between consumers and the exchanges/data centres) don't have the same back up power resilience.  A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, so consumers will lose connectivity as soon as their street cabinet runs out of power. 

The core network is based in exchanges where PSTN was based - the PSTN telephone network was built during the cold-war period, and as a result a large degree of resilience was built in (regardless of cost).

Things have changed since then. Capitalism and profit have replaced the cold-war mentality, and the advent of the internet has increased the power consumption significantly - so the cost of providing the same resilience as previously is now significantly greater. With FTTC cabinets (and altnet FTTP cabinets) also needing power the number of places backup power is needed is also much larger. Nobody is willing to pay the cost for resilience (well, a few of us would...).

[#13]

As a point of accuracy, the resilience in the PSTN has nothing at all to do with the Cold War.  Public telephone exchanges were run from massive battery banks well over 100 years ago.  The reason for this is largely historical, the telegraph network (which became the telephone network) was put in long before mains electricity was widely available.

What became the PSTN was never a part of Cold War critical infrastructure.  My first job (well over 50 years ago) was working on the design of a replacement secure comms network for the MoD, to replace a system of War Department private lines they had put in before WWII.  All the operational comms used the War Ministry's private (and half-way secure) network.  This was hard wired like the PSTN, but was arranged in cells, rather like the mobile phone network, not the star and trunk arrangement that the PSTN used.

The reason this was done was to give redundancy in war.  By having multiple routes available comms could be re-routed (manually, by COMCEN staff) around anywhere that got hit by bombing.  It allowed, for example, Fighter Command to have a robust means of coordinating air defence even if some airfields (and their associated COMCENs) were knocked out (as many were - they were a key target).  The other vital reason for the War Department (later the Ministry of Defence) to have private lines was security.  Until Subscriber Trunk Dialling was introduced (some time in the early 1960's IIRC) all calls were manually routed.  This meant that GPO telephone operators could listen in on calls (and they very often did!).  Not great to have the nation's security dependent on the GPO operators adhering strictly to the terms of the OSA they had agreed when taking the job.

The place I was working (Support Command Signals HQ, RAF Medmenham) was in the process of developing a switched packet comms system to replace the manual operator task that was still in use on the MoD private network.  The core network hub for the prototype (the bit I was working on) was a PDP 8, with a massive drum store that was used solely as a buffer for the network messages, whilst the routing was happening (very slowly!).  It worked a bit like the way that modern broadband, but at very much lower data rates.  Messages were handled at 300 baud, and even then the computer wasn't fast enough to route them directly!  The system spelled the end of unencrypted voice as well, as the intention was to get rid of the analogue scramblers used on the private phone network and use digital comms (teleprinters) for all communications above Restricted.

[#14]

As an addendum to the above, when I wrote "manually routed" I included Strowger routing (every bit as insecure, as there were monitoring connections on every line).  IIRC, the Strowger switchgear system was known as Automatic Dialling.  It's quite likely that another reason for keeping the massive battery banks at exchanges could be related to the high pulses of current the Strowger switchgear used.  Not my area (I was strictly on the electronic and computing side), but I remember a tour of a small Strowger exchange years ago.  The noise was deafening, hundreds of Strowger switches all clacking away like mad, each one driven by someone dialling a number.

[#15]

Thanks for the history @JSHarris ! Very interesting. 

I did work for a major telecoms manufacturer systems a bit over 40 years ago (developing the sort of digital packet-switched systems that are being retired now), but on the civilian side rather than the military. Resilience was top of the requirements list (beyond what would be required just for public use) - after an exchange was commissioned we were contractually allowed a total of 30 minutes downtime in the expected 50 year life of the systems, so upgrades had to be done without rebooting the system.

As you say, the original use of battery packs was largely due to there being no national grid. Until 1935 electricity was generated and distributed locally, and there was a business in renting accumulators (lead acid batteries) which would be collected and replaced (weekly) with freshly charged ones. Even when the national grid was in place, electricity supplies were not as reliable as they tend to be today.

Subscriber Trunk Dialling was first introduced in 1958 - but was limited to certain zones. STD for every call wasn't possible until 1979 (I remember having to go via the operator in a phone box when I was arranging my university applications).

As an aside, I recall being told that all the government drivers that moved ministers around had to carry small change so that they could use a public phone box if necessary in the event of some catastrophic event! At least there were public phone boxes back then (and they only needed small change)! 

BTW, I also remember PDP8s, and I think I could probably still enter the octal bootstrap codes to boot one up.  You say there was a massive drum store - it would be massive physically, but with a very very tiny capacity compared to todays smallest USB stick.Times change.