Can plusnet provide evidence please?

[#1]

Last year, end of September / October I submitted a SORN application to DVLA on a vehicle that I couldn't put through an MOT due to vehicle repairs that were taking time (and still ongoing). No email came my way and I tried to submit it again but the website told me that I had already submitted an application and wouldn't let me do so again. Nothing I can do about that but it's done and they've at least acknowledged it online.

In January the insurance ran out and I did not renew it because of a spat with the vehicle insurer. Insurance is not compulsory for a vehicle that is not in use, it's optional. The vehicle is on private land but i kept it insured deliberately in case of any problems with neighbours (eg strong storm blowing it over etc). Within a fortnight, DVLA suddenly spring into action to tell me that it's not taxed and hasn't been for some while and that I need to tax it or declare SORN!

Hang about.. I did! What happened to that then?!

No worries, I'll go into Chromes history.. oh.. hang.. it only keeps 3 months worth.

So, plusnet, do you have any records of our internet connection making any http requests to DVLAs SORN service in your logs?

I'm going to need to prove to them at some point that they are in the wrong and that I'm in the right.

[#2]

@7up 

Probably not much help in your present predicament, and you may already know that you can check your vehicles tax status (including whether it's SORN'd) at -  https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-tax

Edit: Good luck!

[#3]

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@7up wrote:

Last year, end of September / October I submitted a SORN application to DVLA on a vehicle that I couldn't put through an MOT due to vehicle repairs that were taking time (and still ongoing). No email came my way and I tried to submit it again but the website told me that I had already submitted an application and wouldn't let me do so again. Nothing I can do about that but it's done and they've at least acknowledged it online.

Pity you didn't screenshot that message - often worth it for any dealings with offialdom.

Anyway having had dealings with DVLA on a number of occasions, I'd highly recommend just calling them. There's rarely a very long wait and - without exception - I have found their customer-service helplines extraordinarily helpful.

Just explain what's happened - all websites have glitches from time to time - and ask if you should date the (new) SORN application from the original date you applied for it, or start-of-this-month, or whenever.

Definitely worth a try.

.

[#4]

Moderator's note:
Thread moved from Full Fibre to My Account/Billing

[#5]

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@RobPN wrote:

@7up 

Probably not much help in your present predicament, and you may already know that you can check your vehicles tax status (including whether it's SORN'd) at -  https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-tax

Edit: Good luck!

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Yeah I know you can check it but at the time having had a 2nd 'application' declined, I felt assured that it was definitely being dealt with and they couldn't deny it. After that I simply forgot to check on it.

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@Penny wrote:

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@7up wrote:

Last year, end of September / October I submitted a SORN application to DVLA on a vehicle that I couldn't put through an MOT due to vehicle repairs that were taking time (and still ongoing). No email came my way and I tried to submit it again but the website told me that I had already submitted an application and wouldn't let me do so again. Nothing I can do about that but it's done and they've at least acknowledged it online.

Pity you didn't screenshot that message - often worth it for any dealings with offialdom.

Anyway having had dealings with DVLA on a number of occasions, I'd highly recommend just calling them. There's rarely a very long wait and - without exception - I have found their customer-service helplines extraordinarily helpful.

Just explain what's happened - all websites have glitches from time to time - and ask if you should date the (new) SORN application from the original date you applied for it, or start-of-this-month, or whenever.

Definitely worth a try.

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As above, having the 2nd attempt refused I didn't worry about screenshotting it (not that it means much in a court of law with photoshop etc) but in hindsight I should have video'd it on my phone.

You can't actually pick a date to declare SORN and you cannot backdate it either (that's how they make their fine money) however I did end up ringing them in the end (reluctantly) and they have admitted that they can see an application for SORN was made on 30/9/24 but that it failed (or rather their computer system ignored it because of internal politics regarding how they treat customers). Anyway they do admit that I attempted to notify them and that if i get a fine i can still appeal it. I'm not  legally duty bound to appeal anything to clear my name of their wrongdoing that they've admitted to but they are duty bound to prove that I committed an offence and so if they do fine me we shall end up in the magistrates court where the media will be invited to witness it all. 

This is the next post office IT scandal in the waiting.

You are legally responsible to notify them if you're putting your car off the road which I did. For some odd reason though on the DVLA website you have to 'apply' to notify them - and they have given themselves the right to decline your application, ignore it and then pursue you for money due to their office politics at a later date. This is not legal - they are chosing to ignore notifications while insisting that you must notify them.

Anyway my original question to plusnet remains, can you provide me with any http request confirmations for 30/9/2024 to the dvla / gov.uk websites SORN service?

[#6]

@7up 

From Plusnet's Privacy policy

https://www.plus.net/help/legal/privacy-policy/?_ga=2.65273581.2135049314.1598261562-1457798908.1598...

it states

Browser records – the types and nature of websites that you visit, as well as the date, time, length of your internet session

are retained although its woolly on the retention period , though I'd expect it to be for 12months.

If it were me I'd put in a Subject Access Request for the day in question for ALL the data held by Plusnet for that given day.

It would be interesting to see the results.

[#7]

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@Protech wrote:

@7up 

From Plusnet's Privacy policy

https://www.plus.net/help/legal/privacy-policy/?_ga=2.65273581.2135049314.1598261562-1457798908.1598...

it states

Browser records – the types and nature of websites that you visit, as well as the date, time, length of your internet session

are retained although its woolly on the retention period , though I'd expect it to be for 12months.

If it were me I'd put in a Subject Access Request for the day in question for ALL the data held by Plusnet for that given day.

It would be interesting to see the results.

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You are brilliant!!!

[#8]

@7up 

I'm guessing that Plusnet's records will mostly consist of DNS lookups from your connection.

Do I recall that you are running your own DNS server based on your own code ?

Assuming you are still running your own DNS server, does that keep a log file of lookups ? - is your DVLA lookup in there ?

I also run my own DNS server at home, the last thing I'd ever point them at is Plusnet's DNS, what are yours set to ?

if it's not forwarding via Plusnet DNS, then the Plusnet's records of your activity is likely to be minimal.

.

[#9]

Yes I do run my own coded DNS server but it doesn't perform logging. Even if it did, I could not use that as evidence it would not stand up in a court of law. Evidence from Plusnet would be 3rd party witness who have no interest in the outcome of a case either way. With my own logging I could stand accused of adjusting it in my favour.

My server performs it's lookups via Google at 8.8.4.4

Plusnet is an isp handling both TCP and UDP packets so they will be able to see what http connections were made. I don't use any outbound encryption so they'll be able to see what URLs were visited.

Moderators Note: Full quote of preceding post removed, as per  Forum rules

[#10]

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@7up wrote:

Plusnet ... ... they'll be able to see what URLs were visited.

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How ?

Your browser URLs will have been translated to website IP addresses by YOUR DNS server, and therefore as you're not forwarding via Plusnet DNS there would be no DNS lookups for Plusnet to log ?

Website IP addresses are often shared across a number of hosted websites, one of which will be the site you intend to visit, but which one you land on will be determined by your browser's host header or SNI extension, which I doubt that Plusnet log.

Given that the majority of websites are encrypted these days with SSL and TLS handshaking etc, I'd doubt whether Plusnet log every packet to that level of detail,  as all they can see is your IP address and the web host's IP address and your content should be securely hidden.

.

[#11]

Even if they did, it is evidence you connected to a server and nothing else. You could have been using any service from the DVLA.

You would need deep packet inspection logs and I would be very concerned if Plusnet were doing that as they would need to be doing man in the middle attacks.

I wouldn't waste time going down this route.

[#12]

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@400ixl wrote:

Even if they did, it is evidence you connected to a server and nothing else. You could have been using any service from the DVLA.

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True but the DVLA would have to prove that I was not - otherwise I am innocent until they can prove me guilty.

If I say I was on their site declaring SORN and plusnet have confirmed my connection to their website on that date, DVLA would find it hard to prove that I did otherwise. It would certainly be an unlikely coincidence that I went there to declare SORN but ended up doing something else instead! They would be unable to prove any difference and thus I would be innocent unless they could prove anything else.

As I now have a recorded phone call also confirming that they have a SORN attempt on their system, they would be really pushing their luck to try a criminal conviction against me with confirmation from plusnet too (though this is a state dept, they don't typically care and try it on regardless).

Re the deep inspection.. well Plusnet moons ago were providing customers addresses to ACS law - a private law firm with legal right to access such data and yet they were requesting it and PN were handing it out. PN are now part of BT and BT is the Goliath that doesn't worry about the little David and so I suspect that without admitting it, they are logging all sorts of things that they don't want to admit to (you know how this country works). I'm not phased either way as I've nothing to hide hence I don't use an outgoing VPN either.

[#13]

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@outcast wrote:

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@7up wrote:

Plusnet ... ... they'll be able to see what URLs were visited.

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How ?

Your browser URLs will have been translated to website IP addresses by YOUR DNS server, and therefore as you're not forwarding via Plusnet DNS there would be no DNS lookups for Plusnet to log ?

Website IP addresses are often shared across a number of hosted websites, one of which will be the site you intend to visit, but which one you land on will be determined by your browser's host header or SNI extension, which I doubt that Plusnet log.

Given that the majority of websites are encrypted these days with SSL and TLS handshaking etc, I'd doubt whether Plusnet log every packet to that level of detail,  as all they can see is your IP address and the web host's IP address and your content should be securely hidden.

.

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What you state is correct however those DNS lookup UDP packets will still travel through the PN network as unencrypted packets and thus be recorded - when there is then a http connection to that IP address, it's a no brainer that it is to the website that was just looked up via DNS instead of a different one on that server - and that is how you tie the two together. Obviously if I was using an outgoing VPN their logging would be null and void (allegedly - nobody really knows how VPNs work at the code level - all our packets could be going to the CIA or NSA without us ever knowing).